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 Post subject: Re: G'day
PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2018 3:07 pm 
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I'm trying to understand yes, otherwise I wouldn't respond if I wouldn't mind


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 Post subject: Re: G'day
PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2018 3:21 pm 
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High expectations?

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 Post subject: Re: G'day
PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2018 3:30 pm 
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Most probably (is that wrong ?), but I also am not sure at all how it should look like "normally", becuase I've never been that way.


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 Post subject: Re: G'day
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 1:18 am 
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Thanks for the welcome Jared.

The stripes video was interesting. You have me hunting them down now :P

fufe: have you had or considered professional assistance? Sometimes an extra set of eyes and ears with a professional toolbox can uncover things that may have been missed or made things known that you were simply unaware of.

When I went through my program, my shrink was very shrewd. First he laid out all the theory with hypothetical examples and made sure I comprehended. He then gave analogies from his own life which related to my circumstances and how he personally handled it. Taking his own medicine so to speak.

This facilitated trust in his methods as he was practicing what he was preaching which inspired me to believe and to work harder to achieve the same success as he did. At the end of the ten monthly sessions program, I was sorted with the basics and had a solid foundation upon which to improve in whatever direction I desired.

I still have the notes and pics I took of his whiteboard which I refer back to from time to time when I get stuck. As time goes by and as long as I keep pushing forward, this happens less and less as I fully integrate the values and lessons into the subconscious.

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 Post subject: Re: G'day
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:51 pm 
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I have, but didn't yet. I talked about my experiences with some psychology students before, one told me I was too strong and people needed some illusions to keep going. I was like WTF !


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 Post subject: Re: G'day
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:20 am 
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fufe wrote: *
I have, but didn't yet. I talked about my experiences with some psychology students before, one told me I was too strong and people needed some illusions to keep going. I was like WTF !
I think the student nailed it, we all need illusions and operate from those it's just a matter of levels, like peeling an onion, people just don't want to keep going with the layers because somehow it gets terrifiying, and their suspicions are real.

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 Post subject: Re: G'day
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:00 am 
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No we don't.


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 Post subject: Re: G'day
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:27 pm 
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Dali wrote: *
fufe wrote: *
I have, but didn't yet. I talked about my experiences with some psychology students before, one told me I was too strong and people needed some illusions to keep going. I was like WTF !
I think the student nailed it, we all need illusions and operate from those it's just a matter of levels, like peeling an onion, people just don't want to keep going with the layers because somehow it gets terrifiying, and their suspicions are real.
I would tend to agree with Dali.

The vast majority of the population would fall apart if their illusions were dispelled (just watch how strongly they defend them).. It is how they manage to ignore what is going on around them everyday.

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 Post subject: Re: G'day
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:57 pm 
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Ok, with that I agree - I meant, ultimately, if we are able to face ourselves and reality, we don't.


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 Post subject: Re: G'day
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:26 am 
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Welcome to the club at0m (officially).

On the bit about illusions and layers, I agree completely. Just recently I had a few experiences, close to each other, which showed me illusions I was holding onto. Realizing things weren't as I thought they were really shook me up! I can even say it woke me up.

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 Post subject: Re: G'day
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:59 am 
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Thanks for the welcome TheDude.

I am unclear about what you guys are specifically referring to with illusions and layers.

My thinking is: An illusion is a distortion of the senses which can change the perception of reality. A layer is a mask I put on to either seek pleasure or to avoid pain. My illusions inform my subconscious which mask to put on. For example. I have an illusion that I am not successful in a business because the string broke, the cork popped out and the wheel fell off. So to "save face" I put on the mask that I really would be successful if the strings, corks and wheels behaved. Removing the mask would require "facing" up to the reality that my wish-bone is greater than my back-bone...

So if I take that mask (layer) off to dis-illusion myself, there are other layers (masks I put on) underneath which also require removal?

If someone could give an example to assist my clarity of thinking it would be appreciated.

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 Post subject: Re: G'day
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:36 am 
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at0m(edited) wrote: *
So if I take that mask (layer) off to dis-illusion myself, there [may be] other layers (masks I put on) underneath which also require removal?
Yup

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In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.


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 Post subject: Re: G'day
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:53 pm 
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peregrinus wrote: *
at0m(edited) wrote: *
So if I take that mask (layer) off to dis-illusion myself, there [may be] other layers (masks I put on) underneath which also require removal?
Yup
Damn right :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: G'day
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:13 pm 
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at0m wrote: *
If someone could give an example to assist my clarity of thinking it would be appreciated.
The thing that springs to mind, apart from the obvious onion is a Matryoshka Doll: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matryoshka_doll

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onion_model

or

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_boxes

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In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.


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 Post subject: Re: G'day
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:02 am 
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Here are some questions you may find worthy of exploring.

Is whatever you are, and whatever these layers are, a fixed constant thing? Or is it a living process, something amorphous and constantly generating in real time? The former suggests it's a solid object and the objective is to remove layers until reaching the bottom. The latter sees it as a process happening in real time, and the question becomes about "what is generating it, what is it actually a layer of?"

If the layers, thoughts, feelings, emotions and sensations make "you" - then what is removing them? Can a person step outside of themselves, remove a layer of illusion, and then take credit for it? By definition there is some type of perspective at work that sees more broadly than whatever this bundle of layers is, that can see a layer as a layer and not 'reality.'

What is inside an illusion, and what is outside of it that could somehow be capable of saying definitively "that's an illusion." What is the litmus test that it has been dropped?


There are many different levels of subtlety. Let's take the framework here that there is some type of improving so that one can face reality. This inherently means there is an objective 'reality' out there, and that you are a separated individual who can somehow or face reality directly by purifying, improving this separate self. All of life and 'reality' is over there, and I'm here, interacting with it and hoping to arrive somewhere. Is this worth questioning as a possible illusion in and of itself?

Imagine playing a video game, there is a character on screen leveling up and the goal is removing illusions from that character. The character in the game isn't there doing it. There's not an actual being in the game growing stronger, he and everything there is part of the program or 'reality' of the game.

Who or what is actually playing the game? Where is the power button?

This is about looking to step back and see the entire process from different angles than what is assumed to be true and seeing if it helps the process. If it feels philosophical and mental, don't bother with it.

The guy in the dream never wakes up.

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 Post subject: Re: G'day
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:52 am 
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I have a feeling you might connect with flow’s comment.

What resonates with me flow was when you mentioned about if it’s philiopshical and mental, than keep moving. It’s about getting to the feeling/core, not going down a mental rabbit hole.

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 Post subject: Re: G'day
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:08 am 
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Okay. Thanks to everyone for their info and feedback. Some excellent stuff there. Some of it will take longer to digest than others but it is all very much appreciated.

I get the onion layers, matryoshka doll, chinese boxes concept. A question I ask myself is, how would this look like in my life on a day to day practical level? If I identify and peel off a layer and I sense or gut feel that it is still not right, then what could an example of the next layer be?

Getting back to the business illusion example. I was using external factors as an excuse to mask my lack of personal responsibility toward poor business performance. I unmask this illusion and take action to fix my accountability and the business turns around and becomes successful. Yet while this is satisfying, there is still an underlying unease. I am only pleased that I found the gumption to be honest with myself and take appropriate action. Business success really does not register, I actually don't give a fuck about it.

Further examination reveals the next layer: why am I in business? Aha! To please my parents and grandparents who are successful entrepreneurs. I am doing it to please them and not myself.

So then I take action to unmask this illusion, and discover I really want to be an astrophysicist. Off I go to uni to get a degree and a phd and a job at DESY. Even though the achievements are satisfying, underneath there is still something not quite right. I go through the process of peeling back this layer only to find I was once told I was stupid, and gaining all of these qualifications and pursuing intellectual esoterica is a way to show others I am not stupid. I am still doing stuff to please others ...so on, so forth until the next layer or not.

Flow83, there is a lot in what you say and the questions you ask:
Quote:
Is whatever you are, and whatever these layers are, a fixed constant thing? Or is it a living process, something amorphous and constantly generating in real time? The former suggests it's a solid object and the objective is to remove layers until reaching the bottom. The latter sees it as a process happening in real time, and the question becomes about "what is generating it, what is it actually a layer of?"
Quote:
There are many different levels of subtlety. Let's take the framework here that there is some type of improving so that one can face reality. This inherently means there is an objective 'reality' out there, and that you are a separated individual who can somehow or face reality directly by purifying, improving this separate self. All of life and 'reality' is over there, and I'm here, interacting with it and hoping to arrive somewhere. Is this worth questioning as a possible illusion in and of itself?
Quote:
Who or what is actually playing the game? Where is the power button?

The question I ask which may encapsulate your thinking is:
Quote:
Who Is Breathing?

It is a conceit to think that you are breathing, even though we say it all the time: "I am breathing."

***

Of course you are breathing.

But let's face it. If it were really up to you to keep the breath going, you would have died a long time ago. You would have got distracted by this or that, sooner or later ... and, whoops, dead. So in a sense, "you," whoever you are, are not allowed anywhere near whatever it is that is responsible for your body breathing. The brain stem takes care of that very nicely. Same for the heartbeat and many other core aspects of our biology. We might have some influence on their expression, especially the breath, but it is not fair to say we are really doing the breathing. It is far more mysterious and wondrous than that.

... this brings into question just who is breathing ...who is even reading these words?

(extract from a Jon Kabat-Zinn book)
I agree that:
Quote:
If it feels philosophical and mental, don't bother with it.
...but in context.

I feel there is a time, place and space for philosophical and mental exercises, and for going down mental rabbit holes.

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 Post subject: Re: G'day
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:42 am 
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Well there is good news. These layers of programming and behavior are nowhere near as powerful as consciousness. As deep as they may go, in many cases the second you see them, you see them for what they are. Even if they don't unravel instantly which many won't and are still active, you can choose to act upon them or not, starting from the second you observe them. It's like seeing a huge wall but also seeing for the first time that you can step around it, instead of figuring out how to wear it down over years.

So if self-awareness is anywhere on your priority list to where you practice it (actually practice it) at least a little bit, it's not going to take years into a decision to realize what is motivating it. You can look into the true motivation for the very next action you take, whether that's the next food you are about to eat or whether or not to respond to this post, and 'where' that response is coming from and it could potentially show you a lifetime worth of lessons. A true willingness to look at yourself, your feelings and motivations honestly for even a short amount of time can transform something that's been active for several decades, so it's not linear like that. There's no real limit to how quickly these things can happen because consciousness and realization are limitless, not bound by the same rules for example of things like muscle growth.

The mind will always want to push this off into the future, and instead of starting right now with the very next feeling you have, will make a future based idea of "so i'll get to work on breaking down these layers, figure out how to do that, think about it" instead of just this second looking at what is right here right now. That's the trickiness and the catch, you have to actually be willing to look, and start right now. It's very easy to think we are, we like the sound of it, we like the results we believe it will bring and like to think of ourselves as someone who is willing, but we have to be willing to confront what it is we are actually doing. You can move fast on this and see results tomorrow. Which is worth getting excited about and jumping into immediately, which anyone can do right now because you don't really need anything except the ability to direct your attention and be willing to sit down and explore.

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 Post subject: Re: G'day
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:11 am 
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Excellent post Flow83. Worth a serious cogitation.
Quote:
These layers of programming and behavior are nowhere near as powerful as consciousness
I like it. Being conscious enough to pay attention, to be awake, to be mindful, to be aware, to be curious and interested, to take action on a consistent basis is pretty much the opposite of ignorance.
Quote:
You can look into the true motivation for the very next action you take..
The micro level. Easy to say, easy to do while inspired, hard to do consistently over time. But like anything, daily micro steps compound over time. The Slight Edge by Jeff Olson gets right into this.

Obviously the example I was using was on the macro level and was an exercise in assimilating the ideas on this thread with where I am currently at. Perhaps I used a poor example as the daily micro steps would render it moot. But I get where I was coming from :)

Yet my understanding is clearer. Yes, the feeling, the core, the vibe, plays a key role but reading words on website, or in a book requires processing via the brain to make it digestible to the core.

This is all stuff I want to teach my son.

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