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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:00 pm 
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https://cmhc.utexas.edu/vav/vav_masculi ... ctive.html

Found this on twitter

Some select gems

Strong
Successful
In control
Stand up for themselves
Don't back down
Take care of people

...so toxic :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 5:31 am 
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Whoever wrote that is definitely in the right department. Now, he/she needs to check-in as a patient and stop trying to be the doctor.

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 9:52 am 
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The footnote, right at the end:

The Girl Hunt: Urban Nightlife and the Performance of Masculinity as Collective Activity
David Grazian
https://works.bepress.com/david_grazian/7/

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 5:35 pm 
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peregrinus wrote: *
The footnote, right at the end:

The Girl Hunt: Urban Nightlife and the Performance of Masculinity as Collective Activity
David Grazian
https://works.bepress.com/david_grazian/7/
He looks like a good role model :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 5:37 pm 
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お前はもう死んでいる。

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIaaK2Rqg70

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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 11:20 pm 
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I agree with Ryan Hoover on this issue, including his interaction with a Kimberly Erwin.

https://www.facebook.com/RyanHooverFTF/ ... 2633062532

peregrinus wrote: *
The Girl Hunt: Urban Nightlife and the Performance of Masculinity as Collective Activity
David Grazian
"young men sexually objectify women", "sexual objectification of women" - Quoted from the second page

Hmm... viewtopic.php?f=7&t=199&p=1173#p1173


He also seems biased against bars and nightclubs as ways of meeting a partner.
In fact it is the only traditional way of meeting that has not been in decline during the Internet era.
His dear "in college or in the workplace" are being displaced by the Internet.

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10. ... 2412448050

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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 11:32 pm 
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Lets take a different slant..

Instead of trying to find things wrong with what he wrote, what did he write that resonates deeply with you?

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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2018 5:48 am 
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Well, he's not wrong on the competitive nature part. There are other parts too about that fact that you have to be "fiercely independent" that on some level are tempting to believe. Other parts like there is no biological basis for masculinity are questionable.

I mean aside from the obvious ideological slant, it's got a lot of appeals to negate the burden of responsibility. It doesn't matter how I want things to be though, it matters how they are. It reminds me a lot of the scene in the Matrix where Cypher is enjoying his steak.

I often wonder how people like him are created. I suspect events in his life lead him to the path he is on, but it's curious why more people don't become like us. Aside from the obvious it appears to be the harder path.

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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 2:26 pm 
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Altair wrote: *
I mean aside from the obvious ideological slant, it's got a lot of appeals to negate the burden of responsibility. It doesn't matter how I want things to be though, it matters how they are. It reminds me a lot of the scene in the Matrix where Cypher is enjoying his steak.

I often wonder how people like him are created. I suspect events in his life lead him to the path he is on, but it's curious why more people don't become like us. Aside from the obvious it appears to be the harder path.
https://youtu.be/VdxAx3kYdWs

Not all of us are fortunate enough to come across mentors, or information to guide us to the better way, we don’t know what we don’t know.

The video I linked to should answer your question or at the very least spark deeper thought and inquisition

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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 11:13 pm 
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peregrinus wrote: *
Instead of trying to find things wrong with what he wrote, what did he write that resonates deeply with you?
peregrinus wrote: *
With both, take what you find useful to YOU, discard the rest.
Lesson learned back then


"However, in the long run it is eventually likely to deflate the confidence of those who inevitably continue to fall short of such exaggerated expectations and who consequently experience the shame of a spoiled masculine identity."

"Instead of being too concerned with not screwing up and seeming “weird or desperate,” Darryl now felt like he was in control."

"This is where the night gets really interesting... ...as if their own masculinity is validated by his success."

"...turning a heterosexual public encounter with a stranger into an immediately consummated sexual episode is a statistical rarity, especially when compared with the overwhelming degree of time, money, effort, and emotion that young men invest in such an enterprise."

"Competitive sex talk among adolescent peers in the hours leading up to the girl hunt create an unrealistic set of sexual expectations for impressionable young men, particularly those who already suffer from anxiety over their body image and sexual development."

"Meanwhile, as men grow older and gain additional markers of status (i.e., occupational prestige), they may no longer require the pregaming rituals of confidence building once considered necessary preparation for the girl hunt."

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:33 pm 
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zogler wrote: *

"young men sexually objectify women", "sexual objectification of women" - Quoted from the second page

Hmm... viewtopic.php?f=7&t=199&p=1173#p1173

This is his abstract / summary.

Drawing conclusions from the cited research is literally the whole point of the paper.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:03 pm 
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Altair wrote: *
Well, he's not wrong on the competitive nature part. There are other parts too about that fact that you have to be "fiercely independent" that on some level are tempting to believe. Other parts like there is no biological basis for masculinity are questionable.

I mean aside from the obvious ideological slant, it's got a lot of appeals to negate the burden of responsibility. It doesn't matter how I want things to be though, it matters how they are. It reminds me a lot of the scene in the Matrix where Cypher is enjoying his steak.

I often wonder how people like him are created. I suspect events in his life lead him to the path he is on
Let's pretend that I can read his mind and know his history: a mix of different things like envy even a political agenda.
He in someway is trying to punish those male losers who women crave by being now in a position of power so he can be heard. The so called "beta revolution?" maybe I do not know.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:25 pm 
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Maslow on the strongest people in our society
Quote:
“The strongest people in our society are maybe the softest– in the sense of being altruistic and idealistic… Part of the American difficulty with affection, love, and sentiment is mixed up with our never-ceasing effort to look tough, strong, invulnerable. It is as if mature adults are trying to cloak themselves in the whole adolescent interpretation of masculinity. I remember recently seeing a teenage antiwar protestor on the television news. He was carrying a placard saying, “I am a man.” Then, he began throwing rocks into storefront windows! Well, men do not throw rocks into windows. Only kids do.”
On masculinity
Quote:
“The definition of adult masculinity– of what a fully grown, mature man is like– certainly includes softness, that is, the ability to become sentimental and affectionate. It is only the adolescent male who does not dare to show his affection. You know, adolescents today find it very hard to display affection because behavior appears weak. So unfortunately, they miss out on many good things… [Clearly stating good things] is a mature, psychologically health attitude. It is typical of the man who feels authentically self-confident and who can, therefore, be tender. But if you lack self-confidence, then you have to act tough all the time and consequently to overdo tough behavior.”
https://www.scottbarrykaufman.com/maslo ... r-society/

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:28 pm 
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zogler wrote: *
Quote:
“The definition of adult masculinity– of what a fully grown, mature man is like– certainly includes softness, that is, the ability to become sentimental and affectionate. It is only the adolescent male who does not dare to show his affection. You know, adolescents today find it very hard to display affection because behavior appears weak. So unfortunately, they miss out on many good things… [Clearly stating good things] is a mature, psychologically health attitude. It is typical of the man who feels authentically self-confident and who can, therefore, be tender. But if you lack self-confidence, then you have to act tough all the time and consequently to overdo tough behavior.”
https://www.scottbarrykaufman.com/maslo ... r-society/
This hits me...

Spent the weekend watching the 100 year events, lots and lots of interviews with men who have been through hell and lived to tell the tale.. Young, old and everything in between.

Not one of them acted all tough, they were full of emotion and ok with it.. They owned it...
They were opening up with no thought of protection or weakness..

The affection they showed for friends, family and others was very touching.

Very touching to the soul.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:52 am 
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peregrinus wrote: *
This hits me...

Spent the weekend watching the 100 year events, lots and lots of interviews with men who have been through hell and lived to tell the tale.. Young, old and everything in between.

Not one of them acted all tough, they were full of emotion and ok with it.. They owned it...
They were opening up with no thought of protection or weakness..

The affection they showed for friends, family and others was very touching.

Very touching to the soul.

Do you know the name of video you watched over the weekend? It sounds like it was good.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:23 am 
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TheDude wrote: *
Do you know the name of video you watched over the weekend? It sounds like it was good.
It was not a video.. it was a series of broadcasts on various channels of the various events going on from various countries, most of which seemed to involve interviews with veterans of all ages.

to expand, as I recieved a few PMs on this

Sadly they were not videos I was watching...

they may be available, on youtube... some of it

I watched hours of broadcasts across 3 days from terrestrial tv stations, many different ones..
I was watching live transmissions of the events... when there were pauses they had interviews either with people there, or small pre recorded selections...

So there were many across the 3 days... events in various countries around europe that were involved..

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In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:31 am 
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DVR peregrinus...DVR!

;)

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:36 am 
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This comes in handy as I'm reading Iron John from Robert Bly in spanish.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:06 pm 
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APA issues first-ever guidelines for practice with men and boys
Quote:
Men commit 90 percent of homicides in the United States and represent 77 percent of homicide victims. They’re the demographic group most at risk of being victimized by violent crime. They are 3.5 times more likely than women to die by suicide, and their life expectancy is 4.9 years shorter than women’s. Boys are far more likely to be diagnosed with attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder than girls, and they face harsher punishments in school—especially boys of color.

APA’s new Guidelines for Psychological Practice With Boys and Men strive to recognize and address these problems in boys and men. Thirteen years in the making, they draw on more than 40 years of research showing that traditional masculinity is psychologically harmful and that socializing boys to suppress their emotions causes damage that echoes both inwardly and outwardly.

Researchers assumed that masculinity and femininity were opposite ends of a spectrum, and “healthy” psychology entailed identifying strongly with the gender roles conferred by a person’s biological sex.

The main thrust of the subsequent research is that traditional masculinity—marked by stoicism, competitiveness, dominance and aggression—is, on the whole, harmful. Men socialized in this way are less likely to engage in healthy behaviors. For example, a 2011 study led by Kristen Springer, PhD, of Rutgers University, found that men with the strongest beliefs about masculinity were only half as likely as men with more moderate masculine beliefs to get preventive health care. And in 2007, researchers led by James Mahalik, PhD, of Boston College, found that the more men conformed to masculine norms, the more likely they were to consider as normal risky health behaviors such as heavy drinking, using tobacco and avoiding vegetables, and to engage in these risky behaviors themselves.

“Because of the way many men have been brought up—to be self-sufficient and able to take care of themselves—any sense that things aren’t OK needs to be kept secret,” Rabinowitz says. “Part of what happens is men who keep things to themselves look outward and see that no one else is sharing any of the conflicts that they feel inside. That makes them feel isolated. They think they’re alone. They think they’re weak. They think they’re not OK. They don’t realize that other men are also harboring private thoughts and private emotions and private conflicts.”

Some of this involves outreach. Efforts like the National Institute of Mental Health’s “Real Men. Real Depression” campaign can normalize help-seeking by showing tough guys struggling. When men do seek help, clinicians need to be aware that aggression and other externalizing symptoms can mask internalizing problems, Levant says. From early childhood on, boys are encouraged to push down any emotion other than anger, he says, which interrupts boys’ emotional development.

“I tell clients that oftentimes anger is a powerful emotion to cover for a more vulnerable emotion we might feel,” such as sadness or shame, Levant says.

It’s also important to encourage pro-social aspects of masculinity, says McDermott. In certain circumstances, traits like stoicism and self-sacrifice can be absolutely crucial, he says. But the same tough demeanor that might save a soldier’s life in a war zone can destroy it at home with a romantic partner or child.

“There are times when you need to be able to power through,” McDermott says. “But if you only do that, and you believe that if you don’t do that then you’re somehow less worthy as a person, that’s where you have a problem.”

The clinician’s role, McDermott says, can be to encourage men to discard the harmful ideologies of traditional masculinity (violence, sexism) and find flexibility in the potentially positive aspects (courage, leadership).
[The vast majority of males are not violent or sexist.]

Getting that message out to men—that they’re adaptable, emotional and capable of engaging fully outside of rigid norms—is what the new guidelines are designed to do. And if psychologists can focus on supporting men in breaking free of masculinity rules that don’t help them, the effects could spread beyond just mental health for men, McDermott says. “If we can change men,” he says, “we can change the world.”
https://www.apa.org/monitor/2019/01/ce-corner.aspx

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:25 am 
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Is masculinity really toxic or is it unfairly under assault?
Quote:
Take the now-infamous Gillette ad, “We Believe,” which offers a parade of men and boys behaving badly as an unseen voice speaks of bullying, sexual harassment and “toxic masculinity.” A chorus of dads chimes in with “Boys will be boys.” Then, after a montage of #MeToo news and a call for change, the ad shifts to “good” men, shown caring for their children, stopping fights, standing up to the bullies and jerks.

The ad’s defenders argue that the message is inspiring, not insulting. As the tagline puts it, it’s about “the best men can be.”

Some of the angry responses to the ad were over the top, and yet the detractors have a point. Take the way the ad exhorts men to start doing and saying “the right thing,” and then continues: “Some already are. But some is not enough.” This suggests decent men are a minority while brutes are the norm. What’s more, some of the “toxic” behavior shown is pretty innocuous, such as teenage boys ogling bikini-clad babes on television. (Should we shame girls who drool over cute male pop stars?) The ad also blurs the line between fighting and roughhousing, implicitly condemning the physical play styles more common among boys.

The APA guidelines are a more complicated story. Some of the critiques take aim at things it doesn’t say — such as “toxic masculinity,” a phrase that never appears in the document. The guidelines have also been assailed for claiming that “traditional masculinity — marked by stoicism, competitiveness, dominance and aggression — is, on the whole, harmful.” However, that statement comes not from the guidelines themselves but from an essay about them on the association’s website.

The actual guidelines, nonbinding recommendations to clinical practitioners, are a mixed bag. They acknowledge problems that disproportionately affect men and boys, from poor school performance to suicide, substance abuse and violence. One section extensively discusses the benefits of father involvement, including activities that promote healthy competition.

While the guidelines do take a negative view of many masculine norms, they also emphasize helping patients understand “diverse and healthy” expressions of masculinity. Therapists are urged to be sensitive to typically male attitudes and behaviors (including how depression may manifest itself in men), but are also warned not to assume that all men fit that mold. The text even notes that men can be victims of partner abuse by women and that abused men may be denied help because of stereotypical assumptions.

One problem is that while there is helpful content, it often drips with gender-studies dogma. There’s much talk about “traditional masculinity ideology,” sometimes questionably defined. (Religious traditionalists will be surprised to learn that “traditional masculinity” includes sexual promiscuity.) Sex differences in behavior are treated as entirely the product of socialization, even though the question of nature versus nurture is far from settled. Psychologists working with men and boys are advised to address male “privilege and power.”

This is difficult to square with the empathetic advice in other sections: Try explaining male privilege to a male spousal abuse victim whom the cops are treating as the perpetrator, or a divorced dad struggling to stay afloat and be an involved parent.

Clearly, the would-be reformers of masculinity have their ideological blinders. But many of manhood’s defenders have limitations too. Conservative critics such as National Review columnist David French argue that what the APA calls “masculinity ideology” is simply male nature. Yet, despite some constants (males are more physically aggressive than females in virtually every society and in most mammal species), norms for everything from male emotional expression to aggression levels vary tremendously among cultures and subcultures, just as actual male behavior varies among individuals. Some men are risk-takers or driven achievers; plenty are not. Even if average trends for men and women are linked to biology, that’s no reason to label leadership as “masculine” or caring as “feminine.”

Gender norms have undergone dramatic shifts in our time. Work and achievement as well as family are essential goals for both sexes now, and egalitarian marriage and involved fatherhood are widely shared ideals. Unfortunately, along with values that emphasize equal partnership, we have seen the rise of a polarizing feminism that fixates on male misconduct — including such trivial offenses as sitting with knees apart — while ignoring women’s capacity for bad behavior.

Amid cultural upheaval, there is a very real need for constructive messages about maleness — including criticism of genuinely “toxic” attitudes that confuse bullying with manliness or scorn help-seeking as unmanly.

But the key word is “constructive.” The well-intentioned Gillette ad lapses into male-shaming that undercuts its positive point. The APA guidelines get bogged down in ideological shibboleths that contradict their own male-friendly language. If traditionalist claims about male nature don’t capture the reality of many men’s lives, neither do progressive claims about male power. Beyond the stereotypes, the simple truth is that men, like women, are human.
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/l ... story.html

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