Natural Freedom

Highlighting this to keep it in mind. Well said, Jared. Thanks.

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"I will not grow in the light, until I pass through the darkest caverns of my heart..."

"Temet Nosce"

Exactly.

In reference what Jared said about the process vs. the specifics, it's part the ego that goes "OK, i'm gonna do THIS now" and creates a philosophical stance about it. No more mr meditation, now i'm going to start using logic - Screw body language because it's all internal, etc. They are not opposites or adversarial but part of a whole package. There's logic, emotion, mind, gut, emptiness, ego - and then there's you, the conscious center that observes and is aware of all of it. This is also extremely unsettling because the whole 'this is me and what i'm doing now and what i'm all about' it the foothold for the ego to ground itself on. Freedom = uncertainty.

Truly trusting yourself and trusting your gut means that in one moment, any moment, what you need might be a complete contradiction to what you needed in the last moment. You learn to trust how it feels, not any preconceived ideas. The irony is that there is a type of total surrender involved. True gut/balls/intuition is different than emotion and emotional decisions and one of the biggest points of inner work for men, as far as i'm concerned, is learning to distinguish this because it can't really be described other than you learning how it is for you. What comes up may go against everything you've ever read or been told or had programmed into you, but you have clarity on where it's coming from and you know you gotta do it, despite the risks. Which you are doing of course and kudos.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTXz8xMaJi4

That's awesome man.

Yeah, I've just seen it and experienced it many times and like to make clear the distinction, for whomever may see, that there are lights at the end of these tunnels that are FAR nicer than just "wow the world sucks, but I guess I accept it now and will deal with it" -- which from within the thick of it can seem like the best to hope for, in whatever area of life you've held on to a fake ideal about. It dissolves more and more into living directly with what's in front of you. The ideals aren't there to compare it to and that's the only way there is a problem. They knew what they were talking about when they chose the word "nirvana" - it doesn't mean bliss it means extinction

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTXz8xMaJi4

You know, as I go with more "gut" these days, one of the questions that arises is: "Is this really gut talking, or some form of fear?" I hear so many people say "My gut told me to....", "The spirit is moving me to...." yadda yadda yadda.... In most cases, you can clearly see what's going on, and I sometimes feel like blurting out (for example): "It's your fear of setting a precedent for people to take advantage of you, not "the spirit"." 7 times out of 10, though, I see these occasions as reminders to me, to watch for it in my own life.......

In another thread (http://www.naturalfreedom.info/viewtopi ... 944#p29047), I said Also, quoting for emphasis: By the way, your input, and everyone else's, make this thread even more worthwhile for me to refer back to, than if it just contained my posts.

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"I will not grow in the light, until I pass through the darkest caverns of my heart..."

"Temet Nosce"

"Adventure always begins at the edge of uncertainty."

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"I will not grow in the light, until I pass through the darkest caverns of my heart..."

"Temet Nosce"

What would you do if you just had found that you were a slave?

• - Just carry on slaving?
  - Or, fight for freedom?

I think, that you can try to change the world AND enjoy it at the same time.

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1ThewholeWorldbesearchinforthosewho'dbesearchinforthemselves.

3Hearingstoriesabouttheirgrandparents,madethesonsintogreatsons.Allgreatheroesadoredheroeswhotheyregardedas 13xGreater thanthemselves-theGreatBeingsoftheFuturesPast-totheirlastbreath.

Agreed, but much of the slavery talked about here is internal. Many of you have experienced shifts of more and more freedom, and you didn't move to a new country, you didn't change the government, you changed from the inside out, you may very well still live in the same fucked up cultural environment but are no longer a slave to its influence.

I believe you will impact more change in the world BY enjoying it and being a living example of a free mind.

You may then be compelled to share your new vision with the world more vocally and outwardly and challenge the belief systems. You may also be killed for it like many of them were, but the greats were free FIRST, they did not necessarily fight the world in order to become free.

You may face a lot of pain in putting a new vision out there, but pain is different than suffering.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTXz8xMaJi4

Yes, but what I am saying is that there are both internal and external slavery, and you are not completely free before your are free from both.
But at the same time you'll know that you aren't completely free yourself. I think, at the same time one should try to achieve next level of freedom as well.

Do you mean to say they were free, internally?
You get your mind free first, and then your body, IMHO.

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1ThewholeWorldbesearchinforthosewho'dbesearchinforthemselves.

3Hearingstoriesabouttheirgrandparents,madethesonsintogreatsons.Allgreatheroesadoredheroeswhotheyregardedas 13xGreater thanthemselves-theGreatBeingsoftheFuturesPast-totheirlastbreath.

Yep, the internal you can control to the max- start with what you can IMHO

The other stuff is just saying that even the "I am going for freedom" or I'm awake/they are asleep is another place to get stuck, and to suffer- the ego can latch on to anything, and it is something to watch out for. I agree its all about keeping going, the next level of freedom is to be free from even that, and live your life directly moment to moment with passion, ie, present. One of the biggest ironies is that "fighting for freedom" at least of ego/mind tyranny has a lot to do with letting go more and surrendering more. Stepping right into the abyss.

Free internally-- can still be super passionate, fight for change etc but the martyrdom and sense of attachment can be free. Ever meet someone who is a drama queen about their cause, even some little one, and you can tell its really all about them and not the cause?

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTXz8xMaJi4

Yes, I agree, start with that

"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference."
- Someone clever
Yes, I agree. You should be doing it only because it's what you want to do for yourself, and not to impress someone else, by which you are again back in the social matrix (which is all about impressing others).

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1ThewholeWorldbesearchinforthosewho'dbesearchinforthemselves.

3Hearingstoriesabouttheirgrandparents,madethesonsintogreatsons.Allgreatheroesadoredheroeswhotheyregardedas 13xGreater thanthemselves-theGreatBeingsoftheFuturesPast-totheirlastbreath.

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"You can tell a lot about a person by how they react when someone dies." - Charlie Kirk

From http://www.naturalfreedom.info/viewtopi ... 967#p29967: Related to this (but not concerning a relationship), I would like to know what you guys think about something I did today:

There's a shop I frequent for some things I need, I get along fairly well with the girl who works there, so sometimes I hang out with her for a bit. Today one of her other customers was there - another chick who I used to chat with occasionally and got along well with at first, but her arrogance and the fact that she thinks she's the shit and a total badass started to shine through, so I subtly backed off. So when I left the seat I was in (the only customer seat in the shop) to select my stuff, I notice that she hijacks it immediately. Well, I just chuckle (don't even know why.....).

Now it's been apparent in my posts above that I still have a bitter taste from the red pill; this last week it looks like I have let it go, but will wait to post about that in this thread after more time has elapsed, just to be sure......

Anyways, while selecting my shit, this goes through my mind automatically: "WTF is she trying to pull? Even a month ago I would have called her out on this, but right now i'm more curious to see if she's shit-testing me (as the PUA guys call it), or if she took the seat simply because she's a bitch......" So I select what I want, and go back to my buddy (the employee) to tell her what i've selected, and stand next to the bitch in the chair while doing so. She tells me one of my items will need processing, so I decide in my mind that i'm not gonna play games or argue with bitchstolemychair, i'm not gonna stand up & wait when I should be sitting down, and there's other stuff I have to do in the area anyway; my buddy (employee) and I can catch up another time. So I tell her fine - I gotta run some errands and will pass back later. She says my stuff will only take a few minutes or so, why not wait?

So I move around to the other side of the counter and continue chatting with her, and bitchstolemychair asks me for a dime so she can get a gumball from the machine. My mind goes BINGO - test! . I casually ask her if she walks around without even a dime on her (and I notice that i'm calmly, but with curiousity, staring her right in the eye - and this is a bitch who loves to intimidate men with her "badassness"). A few seconds pass, then she lowers her eyes, pats her hips and starts to mumble some shit about her pockets, at which point I return my attention to my buddy. Buddy has by now twigged what's going on, and tells me that actually my stuff will take longer than expected - go and take care of business and she'll make sure my shit is ready by the time I get back. Sooooooo I leave.......

And in the course of my errands I synchronistically run into something (not a woman......) that stimulates and inspires me for the rest of the evening (the what isn't important). bitchstolemychair has faded from memory, only popped up in my mind a coupla times as a pathetic joke (as opposed to a fierce misandric cunt, which would have been my state of mind up to a week ago) afterwards (what the fuck is she gonna do when her looks (soon) fade? - the bitch does not have a personality worth sticking around for ), and only really popped up in my mind vividly when I read the post by Flow above. The thing is, when I left the shop, some of those old "alpha male" bullshit doubts popped into my head - "You're running away, man." "You gave away your POWER." Then I realised - I SIMPLY WALKED AWAY. There was 1) no conflict and being dragged deeper and deeper into a woman's manipulations (which she will invariably "win") which could have also put my buddy in the awkward position of having to mediate (not good looking but cool chick, by the way - she despises manipulative bitches and hates symps, and has always made it a point to take care of my professional needs whenever i'm there sometimes to the point of freebies, even though we're now on such casual terms that she could take me for granted if she wished - which explains her actions), and 2) no feeling of having my tail between my legs or anything: it felt like my leaving wasn't an excuse, it was a CHOICE.

And sweetest of all - this just FLOWED. I was mostly on autopilot the whole time.

But I am aware that while "the mists are clearing", there are still many subtleties I have yet to grasp, and the rabbit hole forever deepens, so anyone more experienced please feel free to correct or chastise as necessary. Pussied out or walking away? Too passive or going with the flow (which ended up with me having a much more interesting evening)? A part of me is still unsure, as I did not respond to an obvious challenge, and yet another part is insistent of the fact that I gave her nothing to fight......

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"I will not grow in the light, until I pass through the darkest caverns of my heart..."

"Temet Nosce"

Nicely put flow.
Bravo.

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In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.

Split up because it should beS p a c e
Confirmation and collusion

She did not get the reaction she usually gets..

Oh and space. How did it feel when you were walking away? In that moment.
What does your gut tell you?

You know the answer.

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In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.

I won't lie; there was a slight nervousness and a bit of self-consciousness about whether or not I responded "correctly" a la "You're running away, man." "You gave away your POWER." But there was also a subtle (DEFINITELY not primary) feeling of "walking on air". It may have been a kind of nervous but optimistic uncertainty - i'm not sure.
Gut tells me that I handled it flawlessly. It (probably aided by logic) is also telling me that my asking for input on it, while legit in that there are many subtleties that I have yet to grasp (and it's ok to get guidance from you guys once in a while provided that I continue to be the one doing the heavy lifting), it was also related to the fact that the "alpha male doubts" I referred to are still knocking around my skull. No probs though - they're not gonna disappear overnight, and now that i'm AWARE of them, they can only show their face, and not rule me. Progress .

Also, when I woke up this morning, another thing hit me. Almost all of my conduct during this incident was guided by gut. It seems that both emotions AND logic were operating in the background, but like I said - I was on autopilot. I would like to acknowledge you guys (particularily you and Kidd!!) for pointing me in this direction in the first place.

Also, I should admit to you all that, during my "bitterness period" these past few months (will confirm for you all if I really am more or less out of the woods once i'm sure), quite often different random imaginary situations of a woman trying to manipulate me would pop into my mind - a kind of fantasy. During those (still all too rare!) moments when I happened to be observing my thoughts, rather than put these fantasies down, I would let them play out. While doing this would definitely cause my anger to snowball every time, I continued letting them play out, because I noticed as these past few months went by, WITHIN these imaginary scenarios I was actually getting better at handling the manipulations. This has also more than likely helped......

I suppose this is what Kidd!! refers to when he talks about running various situations & scenarios in his mind.

......and definitely relates to what Flow said (earlier in this thread, I believe) about taking the multifaceted, integrated approach.

Thanks for your input.

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"I will not grow in the light, until I pass through the darkest caverns of my heart..."

"Temet Nosce"

Something else just hit me: as I said before, bitchstolemychair's fucked up attitude was slowly showing itself to me over a period of time. Well, although I was never attracted to her, I realise that everytime I noticed this, my opinion of her general attractiveness would drop a bit.

What really strikes me is that, ever since the stunt she pulled, if I think of her, although her features are the same as they always were VISIBLY, she also appears to be pretty much an unappealing hag to me. Can't really describe it - she LOOKS the same, but yet gives me the impression of one of those cliched malevolent one-toothed witches with a huge wart on their chin. Seriously - she is TOTALLY fucking hideous to me now.

She hasn't changed - my perception of her has. And I theorise that I am perceiving my experience of her INTERIOR to be sorta superimposed on her EXTERIOR. If for some reason she were to strip for me (she's not good looking, but has a fairly nice figure), or attempt to blow me or something, I don't think I could get a hard-on for her if my life depended on it.

This has actually happened to me before, but not over something as minor as this.

This is fucking beautiful! If someone who I AM attracted to tries this with me, I guess a similar thing will happen...........



[For the record, i have always found that overall bitchy behaviour, no matter how "hot" the woman is, always renders her uselessly unattractive to me. This is why my achilles heel has always been "nice" or shy women. But if the above holds true, they now probably don't have a prayer of twisting me up either.]

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"I will not grow in the light, until I pass through the darkest caverns of my heart..."

"Temet Nosce"

Hey 'Grinus, since (at your provocation) I checked my gut and confirmed that I performed as a real man should in the above scenario, I need no more confirmation, but I still got one anyway. Just thought i'd share it with you in case you got a kick out of it, especially seeing how you took the time to help me analyse the scenario. You probably won't be surprised, though, so I hope i'm not wastin' your time:

I subsequently passed through the shop to visit my buddy (the employee who "twigged what was going on") since I was in the area again, and hung out a bit with her. Like I said before, she's always cool with me, but this time there was definitely a "vibe" of a mixture of admiration and gratitude. Didn't give me any freebies (not that I wanted any, and in any event she does this from time to time anyway, so it wouldn't have been anything out of the ordinary).

We often verbally joust, with me usually winning (i'm usually quite good at this, although I suck at playing "games", which is irrelevant since I don't intend to play them anyway). Well this time, after another match which I won as usual, she declared to a couple of other customers in the store (who I am also on friendly terms with) "I hate this man when he's here, but miss him when he isn't."

As I said before, she hates to see women manipulate men, and she also hates "symps". Actually, she probably hates symps more - one time when we witnessed a symp being totally wound up by his gf's manipulations, upon their exiting the shop she said "God, I wanted to slap that motherfucker. What a pussy!" So to get the behaviour I got from someone like her is another confirmation - I am not after anyone's approval, but coming from a woman like this it says a lot.

Also, my behaviour was simply for my benefit and for defending myself against a total bitch; but if it also made the day of a cool chick like the employee, someone who I normally wish happiness for anyway, well then that's a cool bonus....

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"I will not grow in the light, until I pass through the darkest caverns of my heart..."

"Temet Nosce"

Brought a smile to my face roark

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In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.

Nothing to see here, folks. Just posting a quote that I really like as a reminder to myself.

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"I will not grow in the light, until I pass through the darkest caverns of my heart..."

"Temet Nosce"

Damn! I was looking forward to a LONG post filled with Jungian philosophies.

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"Truth is not something that can be truly and deeply understood by having it spoon-fed to you." - Adyashanti