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 Post subject: Question for Peregrinus
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:47 pm 
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I understand that you are a big on giving space and letting women close the space.
My question(s) do you use game (ie. flirting, seduction, manipulation, push - pull) at all ?

I ask because I am not particularly fond of it but from my personal experience it seems to be the gap closer and deal sealer in the mating dance.

Tha Kidd explains his method I want to know more about yours if you have any.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:23 pm 
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Resonance wrote: *
I understand that you are a big on giving space and letting women close the space.
My question(s) do you use game (ie. flirting, seduction, manipulation, push - pull) at all ?

I ask because I am not particularly fond of it but from my personal experience it seems to be the gap closer and deal sealer in the mating dance.

Tha Kidd explains his method I want to know more about yours if you have any.
I have to say good question, it caused me to pause for some time.

I would say, myself that I do not use any kind of formal game type system, in that sense.

-

Manipulation I see as a means to change someones actions/view/thoughts/etc. e.g. to make them more likely to do something they are unsure about like go on a date with you or sleep with you.

Seduction is an interesting one, I would put that with manipulation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seduction

A nope on both, for various reasons.

If they are unsure or not interested, thats cool, there will be another time, another place. walk away. I would rather not try to change their minds, for many reasons.

-

For flirting, once things have opened up and we are on a level, yes.

I do not do flirting for fun, for validation or amusement.
Flirting with intent yes, flirting with no intent or hiding it, no.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flirting

To a degree, I am of the view that flirting and push pull are the same thing, or very closely related. More that flirting is before a certain level of intent then it becomes part of the whole push pull thing afterwards.

Flirting with no intent, is like a fake pull. A pull with nothing behind it. Its nothing without intent. It feels very much like attention/validation seeking to me.
Flirting with intent is a pull.

the label flirting, imho, is really to give people plausable deniability and a get out of jail card.. 'oh i was just flirting, i didnt mean anything by it'

as said on the wiki page:
Quote:
Flirting in the goal of signalling interest appears as a puzzling phenomenon when considering that flirting is often performed very subtly. In fact, evidence shows that people are often mistaken in how they interpret flirting behaviours.[18] Thus, if a main purpose of flirting is to signal interest to the other person, why isn't this signalling done more clearly and explicitly?
Personally, I would rather signal my intent/interest in more overt ways, when I want to, that way there are no misunderstandings on either side.

If they are unsure or not interested, thats cool, there will be another time, another place. walk away. I would rather not try to change their minds.

..
In some senses I see flirting with intent as something to get you both to a level where push pull WILL work and you can transition to that without the veil of flirting. Its a starting point where one (or both) sides are unsure, or at different energies/levels and want to feel the other out, then once that foundation is laid, the transition to push pull occurs.. but without that common ground push pull has a good chance not to work as there is no foundation to base it on, no common ground, no awareness of 'where' the other person is or the relation between your states.

-

so, that leaves push pull.

this in a way powers things imho. It also lets you explore each other.

without it, where is the energy, where is the motion, where is the emotion

push, pull, withdraw, advance
create space, remove space

There is the odd case when you are both on the same level straight away, if so skip this.. otherwise

Somehow the two of you need to change the energy level, find common ground and get in sync, to a greater or lesser degree. As much as you need to for the setting and activity.

(vibing - sync)

Either they meet you, you meet them or you meet each other.

If you dont sync, this can be jarring and will not fit well. If you are running at different speeds, energy levels, directions, goals etc etc etc. Some will jar more, some less.

As you start to fit each other better, energy and level wise, you start to notice things go a lot smoother for both of you, letting you both relax and open more. In a sense it becomes more unconcious the more you two sync.

I also very much think this becomes a dance and pretty much unconcious as you two sync, its going on yet you arent really aware of it, its 'just' how it happens. it 'flows'

(an example is where you've had an interaction/conversation that has gone on for an extended period and you havent really had to stop and think, its just seemed to flow without much thought, you are both on the same level, thinking similar, following the same path)

When it doesnt, you know it doesnt.. when it does, you do

If you watch/observe it, you can see it happening, the changes, the pushes, the pulls, the switches, how the energy flows, how the energy changes. How it pretty much has to. (you can watch this in other people, in interviews, tape yourself etc)

In a sense, you are both showing each other where you are and how to get to where you both need to be at that moment - for things to click and sync. That you are both aiming for the same goal, alternatively that you are not and its better to walk away.
(this imho is where manipulation and seduction enter from stage left, if you go that route)

If they are unsure or not interested, thats cool, there will be another time, another place. walk away. I would rather not try to change their minds.

When you are in sync or getting there, then you can both work on the goal together, co-operatively, helping each other along the way. flowing.

Then the pushes and pulls can become the driving force behind you both getting to the goal, keeping you on track, helping each other over obstacles, in a sense they provide the energy that powers it all.

At this point I would say you are both in automatic push pull mode, with it happening without much if any concious thought. The more you are syncd, the more the other person knows when you need a push or pull and vice versa, not thinks, knows.


-

I have caught myself doing push pull without being aware of conciously doing it, noticing that I was doing it, finding myself watching myself and going ummm.

I have also watched people doing push pull to me, conciously aware (me) of what they were doing, in the moment, noticing it and observing. Letting it play out and seeing what they are aiming at.


Yes, I do push pull, both conciously and unconciously

I would go further and say we all do.

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In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 5:56 pm 
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Thank you very much Resonance for the question.
I had wondered that myself about Grinus :lol:

Reading all this energy / sync and push / pull talk, Grinus, makes me think of "The S.O.S. Band" - "Just Be Good To Me"

https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/sosband ... dtome.html
Quote:
It's not the way I see it
'Cause I feel you're already mine
Whenever you're with me
Quote:
You may have many others
But I know when you're with me
You are all mine
Quote:
I'm like the jealous type, I won't tie you down
When you need me, I'll be around
Grinus, I'm assuming you're behaving pretty much the same with people in general? (Except the flirting of course)

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Giving others the freedom to be stupid is one of the most important and hardest steps to take in spiritual progress.
Conveniently the opportunity to take that step is all around us every day.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:47 pm 
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GoldenBoy wrote: *
Grinus, I'm assuming you're behaving pretty much the same with people in general?
Yes

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In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:10 pm 
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Also, look at this old thread Resonance, seems related ;)
https://naturalfreedom.info/viewtopic.php?p=2287#p2287

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Giving others the freedom to be stupid is one of the most important and hardest steps to take in spiritual progress.
Conveniently the opportunity to take that step is all around us every day.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:20 am 
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peregrinus wrote: *
Manipulation I see as a means to change someones actions/view/thoughts/etc. e.g. to make them more likely to do something they are unsure about like go on a date with you or sleep with you.

Seduction is an interesting one, I would put that with manipulation.
Agree completely.

IMO the project is to really let go of the outcome - paradoxically without 'not caring' about it either (apathy - which seems a reaction rather than genuine).

Security in oneself/confidence/indifference etc etc etc that elusive place.

The question is how to get there? Where you can let go.

I find there are circumstances where that is easier, other times higher stakes can throw me off. Recently have had very competitive interviews - found it very difficult to relax, by myself, and think clearly. I wanted it very badly.

What do you think gets one to that place of secureness in themselves? On the forum I see 'love yourself', 'be your best friend', 'know your value'.

Part of me thinks of first achieving things and THEN it comes; but in my experience this isn't the case. I think it is internal first.

And not just 'convincing oneself', there is a different feel closer to arrogance that comes from that.
peregrinus wrote: *
If they are unsure or not interested, thats cool, there will be another time, another place. walk away. I would rather not try to change their minds, for many reasons.
I love this. Speaks to the above, and again - I feel there is a difference between 'taking it on' as an attitude, and genuinely proceeding from this place. It feels to me a little paradoxical, but I also expect you to say something very simple and that "simplicity before understanding is simplistic" ;)

(Edit)
To add Grinus, where you 'insecure' before settling into your secure sense of self? Is it something that you feel comes and goes? Develops in stages? Were there specific periods of transition that you remember?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:14 pm 
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Hineini wrote: *
The question is how to get there? Where you can let go.
I would ask myself, what is it that stops me letting go?
Hineini wrote: *
I find there are circumstances where that is easier, other times higher stakes can throw me off. Recently have had very competitive interviews - found it very difficult to relax, by myself, and think clearly. I wanted it very badly.
In my view, not a time to relax. a time to be planning, preparing, checking, double checking.

trying to make it so the interview is easier than the preparation for it, or rather the preparation makes the interview less stressful.

being prepared, knowing you are prepared, knowing you are ready for them, as ready as you can be. knowing that you have prepped the things you can and that they will throw curveballs at you, being ok with that. Preparing a few curve balls for them, knowing what you want to find out from the process.

If I am too relaxed before an interview, it is time to ask why I am doing it.. Its obviously not stretching me, so am I aiming too low?
Hineini wrote: *
What do you think gets one to that place of secureness in themselves? On the forum I see 'love yourself', 'be your best friend', 'know your value'.
Each of us discover in our own way, I truly believe that. Each of us has some things we've gone through thats changed it. Had an effect on whatever it is that was 'blocking us' or 'tieing us up in knots'

Again, I would ask, why am I insecure, what is stopping me feeling secure in myself, trusting in my abilities, trusting my gut. What do I doubt about myself.

Knowing yourself.
Hineini wrote: *
Part of me thinks of first achieving things and THEN it comes; but in my experience this isn't the case. I think it is internal first.
This made me smile, because of the image that popped into my head.
It was a 'Lateral Stepper Resistance Band' (resistance band between two ankles) walking along.

In a sense, I see it as one leg is the internal and one is the external.. trying to walk together (move forward towards the goal).
one has to stretch forward overcoming the resistance, then it helps the other along using the energy stored in the band to help as it catches up.
the the process repeats itself.

On some level, I do believe too big a gap between the two becomes an impediment, hence the band, otherwise one gets left behind.

sometimes the internal leads, sometimes the external leads, sometimes they alternate.

A journey of a thousand miles is taken a step at a time
Hineini wrote: *
And not just 'convincing oneself', there is a different feel closer to arrogance that comes from that.
Knowing, believing before the proof, believing after
Hineini wrote: *
I love this. Speaks to the above, and again - I feel there is a difference between 'taking it on' as an attitude, and genuinely proceeding from this place. It feels to me a little paradoxical, but I also expect you to say something very simple and that "simplicity before understanding is simplistic" ;)
:)

Its not what you say, its how you say it.
Hineini wrote: *
(Edit)
Hineini wrote: *
To add Grinus, where you 'insecure' before settling into your secure sense of self?
Yes
Hineini wrote: *
Is it something that you feel comes and goes?
I think its more a dual headed thing. there is you, base you. Then there is you in a situation. I do believe that situation affects it, its bound to.

So I think theres a base level that you carry with you, then this is affected by the situation and how secure/insecure you are in that situation.

it does ebb and flow to some degree
Hineini wrote: *
Develops in stages? Were there specific periods of transition that you remember?
I would say some of it is continual improvement, in steps to suit you.
other times/areas it is fits and starts, with plateaus all over the place. Punctuated by steep climbs, usually prompted by something (external) that confirms an internal shift that has been waiting to happen, or rather the preparation has been put in place.

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In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:14 pm 
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peregrinus wrote: *
Again, I would ask, why am I insecure, what is stopping me feeling secure in myself, trusting in my abilities, trusting my gut. What do I doubt about myself.
A question to spend some time with.
peregrinus wrote: *
This made me smile, because of the image that popped into my head.
It was a 'Lateral Stepper Resistance Band' (resistance band between two ankles) walking along.

In a sense, I see it as one leg is the internal and one is the external.. trying to walk together (move forward towards the goal).
one has to stretch forward overcoming the resistance, then it helps the other along using the energy stored in the band to help as it catches up.
the the process repeats itself.

On some level, I do believe too big a gap between the two becomes an impediment, hence the band, otherwise one gets left behind.

sometimes the internal leads, sometimes the external leads, sometimes they alternate.

A journey of a thousand miles is taken a step at a time
Interesting, I hadn't thought of a gap between the two as a potential obstacle before. I can see how if you're too far ahead in the one, you might be hesitant to approach the other - lest it snap you back to reality. ;)
peregrinus wrote: *
So I think theres a base level that you carry with you, then this is affected by the situation and how secure/insecure you are in that situation.

it does ebb and flow to some degree
To keep your metaphor and apply it in another way: I'm thinking that the base level is an internal, the situational external, the situational's pull it forward over time as you become more confident / competent. More rubber band.
peregrinus wrote: *
I would say some of it is continual improvement, in steps to suit you.
other times/areas it is fits and starts, with plateaus all over the place. Punctuated by steep climbs, usually prompted by something (external) that confirms an internal shift that has been waiting to happen, or rather the preparation has been put in place.
Thank you for your clarifications. Accord with my journey thus far.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 12:10 pm 
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Hineini wrote: *
Interesting, I hadn't thought of a gap between the two as a potential obstacle before. I can see how if you're too far ahead in the one, you might be hesitant to approach the other - lest it snap you back to reality. ;)
Internal and external with no gap = congruence
Gap = in-congruence

the bigger the gap, the bigger the incongruence

imho, we all have a temporary incongruence whilst growing, when one stretches ahead of the other.. Then congruence is re-established when the other catches up.

The 'snapping back' imho, is the sand castle of incongruence and trying to maintain that, failing. Taking you back to the state of congruence.

incongruence imho takes effort/energy to maintain.
Hineini wrote: *
To keep your metaphor and apply it in another way: I'm thinking that the base level is an internal, the situational external, the situational's pull it forward over time as you become more confident / competent. More rubber band.
I disagree

imho the bases and the situationals apply to both the internal and external
{
one base and situational applies to the internal
another base and situational applies to the external
Parallel systems, not the same one.
they can be at different places, have different reactions

for example, you could have a very different internal situational reaction to your external situational one, if you are in a state of incongruence - for example learning, wearing a mask
}

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In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 2:32 pm 
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peregrinus wrote: *
The 'snapping back' imho, is the sand castle of incongruence and trying to maintain that, failing. Taking you back to the state of congruence.

incongruence imho takes effort/energy to maintain.
Nice way to put it.
peregrinus wrote: *
Parallel systems, not the same one.
they can be at different places, have different reactions

for example, you could have a very different internal situational reaction to your external situational one, if you are in a state of incongruence - for example learning, wearing a mask
Took me a while to get this.

I see what you mean.

The mask is interesting.. you can have certain reactions, but the illusion comes apart eventually. I like how you put it - the incongruence takes work to maintain.

Is this what guys are referring to as 'cloaking'? Not putting up a front/mask, you don't stand out on first look, but the quality gets felt out soon enough?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 11:18 pm 
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Hineini wrote: *
Is this what guys are referring to as 'cloaking'? Not putting up a front/mask, you don't stand out on first look, but the quality gets felt out soon enough?
For me this thread sums it up: viewtopic.php?p=44866#p44866

its not so much putting up a front/mask, as you say.. its not providing stimulus to the environment. hrm, in a sense excess stimulus, beyond that required, as mentioned in the above thread.

the search term 'gray man' will be interesting.

Its there, if examined, it is there, it isnt shouted about or waved in your face.

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In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2021 4:40 am 
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Resonance for the win asking the question! Still haven't read the full thread, but will get back to it at some point.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2021 11:09 am 
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peregrinus wrote: *
Hineini wrote: *
Is this what guys are referring to as 'cloaking'? Not putting up a front/mask, you don't stand out on first look, but the quality gets felt out soon enough?
For me this thread sums it up: viewtopic.php?p=44866#p44866

its not so much putting up a front/mask, as you say.. its not providing stimulus to the environment. hrm, in a sense excess stimulus, beyond that required, as mentioned in the above thread.

the search term 'gray man' will be interesting.

Its there, if examined, it is there, it isnt shouted about or waved in your face.
:shock: :o
I had completely missed that post.
Very interesting. In a way, you cloaking / being invisible in a sea of shiny objects, make you stand out to those who are really looking. :p
Your real vibe attracts those who want to "share it" once they acknowledge it.

Quite fascinating.

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Giving others the freedom to be stupid is one of the most important and hardest steps to take in spiritual progress.
Conveniently the opportunity to take that step is all around us every day.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:08 pm 
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@ GoldenBoy
Quote:
Giving others the freedom to be stupid is one of the most important and hardest steps to take in spiritual progress.
Conveniently the opportunity to take that step is all around us every day.
:lol: Yahtzee!

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:03 am 
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@Jared :lol:
Thaddeus Golas's book, I re-read it.
Easy, to the point, some funny bits too ;)

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Giving others the freedom to be stupid is one of the most important and hardest steps to take in spiritual progress.
Conveniently the opportunity to take that step is all around us every day.


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