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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 1:27 pm 
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Following up on these thoughts:
peregrinus wrote: *
By offering a commitment you are admitting you are not in a place of abundance.
You are also telegraphing your fear of loss and hence value of the other.
peregrinus wrote: *
Altair wrote: *
The commonality behind all of their movements is that they immediately try to press me for commitment that they've done nothing to deserve
This I see as them asking you 'is this enough? is this enough to get you to offer your commitment?', a way of assessing where you think your value lies on the scale.

Not to say they want it, or would take it, are you willing to offer it and how much value do you expect in return?

They are not seeking the commitment, they are seeing at what point you will offer it.

The way society, the rules, the boundaries have been put together and the way males thought/think and have been conditioned, I think males put way too much on commitment (on both sides), the females know this and have worked out how to utilise that.

I am thinking they are using the males willingness to offer commitment as a measure of his own internal value.
A couple of passages from:

The Evolution of Human Mating: Trade-Offs and Strategic Pluralism
Steven W Gangestad & Jeffry A Simpson
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... _Pluralism
Quote:
5. Strategic pluralism
According to the model we have presented, men’s allocation of effort to short-term mating during evolutionary history should have been contingent on their ability to satisfy the short-term mate preferences of women. Women’s short-term mate preferences, in turn, should have been influenced by GGSS (Good Gene Sexual Selection). Thus, men’s tendency to engage in short-term mating should be a direct function of their genetic fitness (indexed by FA), whereas men’s propensity to invest in single, exclusive long-term relationships should be inversely related to their genetic fitness.
Quote:
From our perspective, the basic notion that men, on average, evolved to engage in greater mating effort than women correctly assumes that some ancestral males could have increased their fitness by trying to attract multiple mates. However, the more stringent notion that the best evolutionary strategy for most men should have been to pursue multiple mates assumes that most men were successful at short-term mating. This is a dubious assumption.

Men’s short-term mating success should have depended partly on which attributes women preferred and desired in short-term mates. Relatively few men are likely to have satisfied these preferences.

Thus, for some men, one cost of engaging in short-term mating would have been the loss of opportunities to engage in parental investment (which human males also evolved to do: see Alexander & Noonan 1979; Lancaster & Lancaster 1985).

If short-term mating effort generated poor payoffs for men who did not have the attributes most women desired in short-term mates, these costs should have outweighed the benefits of pursuing short-term mating.

Hence, the most profitable mating strategy for the typical man may have been to devote most of his reproductive effort to enhancing the phenotypic quality of his offspring by investing heavily in a single mate’s offspring, despite the fact that a few men with certain desirable attributes were even more successful when they adopted short-term tactics.

Consider a parallel example where the currency of profit is money rather than fitness. Suppose that brain surgeons make more money than everyone else does. Clearly, it is not the “most profitable” money-making strategy for everyone to decide to become a brain surgeon. Only so many people can become brain surgeons; hence, most people would be bound to fail. Instead, the most profitable strategy for most people would be to select careers that provide them with the most money, given their abilities and, in competitive markets, their chances of success.

Looks at the phrase 'Men are the gatekeepers of commitment'

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 10:06 pm 
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And how does the optimal strategy change with time?

No matter how much of a player you are now, if you aren't able to shelter your kids from the brainwashing it will all be for nothing.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 10:55 pm 
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Altair wrote: *
And how does the optimal strategy change with time?

No matter how much of a player you are now, if you aren't able to shelter your kids from the brainwashing it will all be for nothing.
is my finger too small, or is the moon too bright to look at?

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 11:07 pm 
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I find the first post wise, will have to ponder over some of the other ones as they are harder to digest.

Just like in other domains, making something scarce tends to increase its value. That’s why advertisers pitch products with a ‘limited time offer.’ The fact that this particular individual is only available on 1-2 days for a few hours per week tends to make him more appealing to you. Just as importantly, it will increase the likelihood that you initiate contact.

In contrast, a committed man is always there for you or at least much more available. Which in turn decreases his value.

According to the principle of least interest, the person who is less invested in the relationship, and thus, less affected by their partner’s actions, possesses relatively greater levels of power to influence their partner and produce relationship outcomes in their favor. In contrast, the person who is more invested, and whose goals and happiness are more dependent on the relationship, is less able to exert influence because the rewards and punishments he or she can enact do not hold as much sway over the partner’s desired outcomes.

The irony here is that the less invested you are, the less you care about commitment.
The more invested you are, the more you care about commitment but you have less power.
So the partner less emotionally evolved typically makes the decisions about commitment.

The person that has the least amount of interest in continuing a relationship has the most power over it.
And that person has to be more valuable than the other.
But that person should also care less about commitment.

2 for 1 ironies :)

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:12 am 
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If she's pursuing you, then nothing is broken,
and you don't have to fix it.

Bringing up your future together first is the best way
to ensure you will not be in hers.

I don't mind if she starts bringing it up though.
Because it's feminine business; that's what the feminine does.
Feminine business is relationships.

It's up to you to set the next level of standards AFTER
she starts talking about the next phase.

evaluate

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:42 am 
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Lots of good points!

peregrinus wrote: *
Losing or giving or having an apple taken does not affect the trees ability to generate more.
This is what I was trying to express. Metaphorically, I don't think the tree would try to generate apples for the outcomes it provides (birds, attention, etc). Chop wood, carry water, because it's what we want to do, not for the external things we gain from it. This is what I'm really trying to work towards.

zogler wrote:
In contrast, a committed man is always there for you or at least much more available. Which in turn decreases his value.
This made me think about a few things. I'm still afraid of being cheated on, which shows me I'm still holding onto some stuff about commitment. That was the first thing.

The other thing it made me think about is... I tried typing my thoughts out in a meaningful way, but I couldn't get it down. I was basically thinking of how commitment keeps couples together even when it decreases the value on some level of one of the partners - a lot of this is tied to fear of loss!

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:16 pm 
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peregrinus wrote: *
Altair wrote: *
And how does the optimal strategy change with time?

No matter how much of a player you are now, if you aren't able to shelter your kids from the brainwashing it will all be for nothing.
is my finger too small, or is the moon too bright to look at?
You've got me stumped lol

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:19 pm 
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About what Peregrinus said, my belief is that if you lead by example, your kids will catch up on it.. Subconscious level is insanely influential but most people don't know it
Just look at how subconscious things from our parents fucked us up in a way lol, demons we had to face (and also good things passed onto us subconsciously)


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:29 pm 
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fufe wrote: *
About what Peregrinus said, my belief is that if you lead by example, your kids will catch up on it.. Subconscious level is insanely influential but most people don't know it.
Just look at how subconscious things from our parents fucked us up in a way lol, demons we had to face (and also good things passed onto us subconsciously)
Absolutely.
Altair wrote: *
You've got me stumped lol
I was stumped about why the time thing came up.. If anything your value would continue to rise and hers would fall. Unless you let yours fall faster than hers, which is kinda counterproductive.
If anything, time re-enforces this strategy/thought/idea/concept. Also points to the failings in the taught thought.

I have been quite careful to keep children and parenting out of this so far, as muddying the waters too much confuses things. If you are her choice for genes, so be it.. That is a small thing in the total picture.
Would there be any difference in how you are around her if she did or did not have children?
or if she did and they were from your sperm?

and as for sheltering children, I would much rather educate them as to the reality of things rather than shelter them. At some point they would have to leave your 'shelter', what then?
peregrinus wrote: *
is my finger too small, or is the moon too bright to look at?
The questions looked like you looked away to me

as zogler said:
zogler wrote: *
The person that has the least amount of interest in continuing a relationship has the most power over it.
And that person has to be more valuable than the other.
But that person should also care less about commitment.
Which side of that equation would you rather be on.. I know which I would choose for myself.

A lot of things in that quote, a lot of dynamics and concepts, all flipped depending on which side you are on.

-

A thought occurred to me: In case I have not made it clear, I am not talking in this subject about any specific woman, relationship or partner.. I am discussing all your interactions.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:48 pm 
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TheDude wrote: *
This is what I was trying to express. Metaphorically, I don't think the tree would try to generate apples for the outcomes it provides (birds, attention, etc). Chop wood, carry water, because it's what we want to do, not for the external things we gain from it. This is what I'm really trying to work towards.
If I take the metaphor...

I live my life, the apples appear by themselves, as I live my life and do actions according to my inner director.
By following how I approach things, do things, my internal guide, the apples are bound to appear. It is not something I try to manifest.

I do witness people trying to force or fake apples and it looks really bad to me. It depends how deeply your audience is looking beyond the apples, there are people who are just happy there seem to be apples not caring to taste them.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:34 pm 
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Oh I was referring to throughout time in society.

Not shelter forever, but at least long enough that they can begin to form their own perceptions about the world. There's a reason the school system is being so heavily attacked by the SJWs.

As soon as they are capable of abstraction I would agree with you. At that point they need to start learning to fend for themselves.

If you're not physically there at least in presence so they have a role model, they're gonna have a heavy handicap to work with.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:37 pm 
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Altair wrote: *
If you're not physically there at least in presence so they have a role model, they're gonna have a heavy handicap to work with.
You have already lost

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:45 am 
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peregrinus wrote: *
Altair wrote: *
If you're not physically there at least in presence so they have a role model, they're gonna have a heavy handicap to work with.
You have already lost
peregrinus wrote: *
Altair wrote: *
If you're not physically there at least in presence so they have a role model, they're gonna have a heavy handicap to work with.
You have already lost
How so?

I've lived first hand the results of a single parent feminist household. It's not what I would call fun.

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A truly powerful Man jealously guards his most precious resources; his independence and his ability to maneuver. True power isn’t controlling others, but the degree to which you control the course of your own life and your own choices. -Rational Male


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:54 pm 
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Altair wrote: *
How so?

I've lived first hand the results of a single parent feminist household. It's not what I would call fun.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1658&p=14990#p14990

Quote:
Nature, not nurture, explains most family resemblance, so parents can safely cut themselves a lot of additional slack.

Accept that your children's lives are shaped mostly by their genes and their own choices, not by the sacrifices you make in hopes of turning them into successful adults.
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyl ... s-more-fun

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:51 pm 
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One more thing to let go of :ugeek:

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:53 pm 
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When I was reading the first post I got a flashback from a situation I saw at the beach few days ago.
A girl and a guy had like a quarrel, a discussion about his working (not stable situation and his insecurities) but even about his leading role and then a phrase I was overhearing from her "I don't see you as a fixed point"...him: "I am hear to clarify". Seemed like they broke up and then got closer again.

Men seem to be seen like rocks, fixed points or like a nihilist/cynic person would say a perfect living organism for a parasite.
Could be that women when choose a man look for simil-father figures? :?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:58 pm 
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PimpDee wrote: *
a phrase I was overhearing from her "I don't see you as a fixed point"
Finish as you start.

If he is a fixed point (stable) then she knows what she is getting and what she will get. If he is not, she will not.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:24 pm 
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peregrinus wrote: *
If he is a fixed point (stable) then she knows what she is getting and what she will get. If he is not, she will not.
Quote:
In a study of gender differences in Big Five traits across 55 nations, Schmitt, Realo, Voracek, and Alik (2008) found men reported lower levels than women did of neuroticism (overall d = −0.40), agreeableness (d = −0.15), conscientiousness (d = −0.12), and extraversion (d = −0.10) across most nations. More egalitarian gender roles, gender socialization and sociopolitical gender equity, however, were associated with larger gender differences. For example, the largest overall gender differences in personality were found in relatively high gender egalitarian cultures of France (d = −0.44) and the Netherlands (d = −0.36), whereas the smallest gender differences were found in the relatively low gender egalitarian cultures of Botswana (d =0.00) and India (d = −0.01). The same pattern of findings—larger Big Five gender differences being found in more gender egalitarian cultures—had been previously documented by Costa et al. (2001) and has since been replicated across dozens of cultures by Lippa (2010a) and Schmitt et al. (2016).
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf ... ijop.12265

Quote:
Individuals who score low in neuroticism tend to be more emotionally stable and less reactive to stress. They tend to be calm, even-tempered, and less likely to feel tense or rattled. Although they are low in negative emotion, they are not necessarily high on positive emotion. Being high in scores of positive emotion is generally an element of the independent trait of extraversion. Neurotic extraverts, for example, would experience high levels of both positive and negative emotional states, a kind of "emotional roller coaster".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroticism

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:38 pm 
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1:1 ratio (1 negative thought, 1 positive thought) would be ideal.
2:1 = Irritable,
3:1 = Unstable,
4:1 = Post traumatic stress disorder,
5:1 = manic depressive,
6:1 = borderline personality disorder,
7:1 = Schizophrenia,
8:1 = Psychotic.

(J.Marshalla)

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:26 pm 
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peregrinus wrote: *
Midas wrote: *
Are Women capable of valuing a mans values in the way that a man expects to be valued?
Seems like another *what* moment. Have you tried answering that question yourself?

She will value things in the way she values them

She will also telegraph this value of value to the male in question, if he is paying attention

What is the saying.. oh yes, pick from those who pick you
Can you write some examples about it?

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