Natural Freedom

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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 11:12 pm 
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Altair wrote: *
Their position is elevated by attaching themselves to someone with greater value than what they and others perceive their own position to be.
Women are women.


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 6:01 am 
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Altair wrote:
So the person creating the value isn't also attached to it, because they created it in this situation.
They could be attached to it. It could be the crutch that holds them up. In my experience I used to do this - have value I was attached to, because of the 'results' it would bring me.

To bring it around again, I think commitment stems from fear. In relationships, if I depend on marriage to keep my partner loyal, then I'm coming from the wrong place - I should've screened them before getting married.

If I'm the guy that having a women in my life is more like a cherry on top of an already good sundae, then I'm in a good position. If she stays or goes, I should be okay. If the girl in my life is 'my sundae' then I'm not in such a good position - as soon as she leaves I'm without ice cream.

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Before the girl - be happy

When with the girl - be happy

When the girl is gone - be happy


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 4:51 pm 
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TheDude wrote: *
It could be the crutch that holds them up. In my experience I used to do this - have value I was attached to, because of the 'results' it would bring me.
Curious on this..
Would you say it was easy for you to generate this value, ie more of it?
Did you treat it (internally) as a limited quantity thing?
Was it something that ended up owning you? (excuse the phrasing)

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In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 5:09 pm 
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TheDude wrote: *
To bring it around again, I think commitment stems from fear. In relationships, if I depend on marriage to keep my partner loyal, then I'm coming from the wrong place - I should've screened them before getting married.

If I'm the guy that having a women in my life is more like a cherry on top of an already good sundae, then I'm in a good position. If she stays or goes, I should be okay. If the girl in my life is 'my sundae' then I'm not in such a good position - as soon as she leaves I'm without ice cream.
Letting my mind wander...

Commitment is offered to try and elicit commitment from the other party.
To try and keep hold of the 'sundae'.

As you mention, this only makes sense if there is a fear of loss.
Why would you even think about it leaving, or losing it.. you would just enjoy it, its there..
If you do think about it leaving, and you knew you could not easily replace it, then fear could come into it.

Now, if you knew that when the sundae left, you could just grab another one, there would be no fear.

So the person imagines losing their sundae, which then causes the fear, then they try to negate that fear by eliciting commitment.
One way to do this is by offering their commitment, in the hope/expectation/fantasy that this will promote a reciprocal reaction. Hence solving the problem, or so it seems.

By offering a commitment you are admitting you are not in a place of abundance.
You are also telegraphing your fear of loss and hence value of the other.
TheDude wrote: *
If I'm the guy that having a women in my life is more like a cherry on top of an already good sundae, then I'm in a good position. If she stays or goes, I should be okay.
And you would have not a thought of offering commitment, there is no need.

_________________
In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 7:03 am 
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peregrinus (edited) wrote: *
TheDude wrote: *
It could be the crutch that holds them up. In my experience I used to do this - have value I was attached to, because of the 'results' it would bring me.
Curious on this..
(1) Would you say it was easy for you to generate this value, ie more of it?
(2) Did you treat it (internally) as a limited quantity thing?
(3) Was it something that ended up owning you? (excuse the phrasing)
(1) No, it wasn't easy to generate more of it, because it wasn't coming naturally. I feel like for the longest time I've been 'adding' layers onto myself instead of taking them. While I think others might've not seen through the act - I was aware it wasn't a genuine value; does that makes sense?
(2) I don't know. I'm not sure I view it as an internal thing. Are you aware of the values you have that come from within you?
(3) It became something I ended up hiding behind.

peregrinus wrote:
As you mention, this only makes sense if there is a fear of loss.
Why would you even think about it leaving, or losing it.. you would just enjoy it, its there..
If you do think about it leaving, and you knew you could not easily replace it, then fear could come into it.
When I hear people say they don't want to be alone when they grow older, I begin to laugh inside.

Quote:
peregrinus wrote:
So the person imagines losing their sundae, which then causes the fear, then they try to negate that fear by eliciting commitment.
One way to do this is by offering their commitment, in the hope/expectation/fantasy that this will promote a reciprocal reaction. Hence solving the problem, or so it seems.
Altair wrote:
Bait can be anything, that lulls you into a obligated routine. It could be as simple as training you to pick a seat beside them. If you begin to feel guilty about not doing something, then they have got through your defenses.
Like Altair mentioned, it becomes a form of baiting. And, if we begin to feel guilty for not complying - we're already have way stuck in the quick sand.


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 8:51 am 
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TheDude wrote: *
(1) No, it wasn't easy to generate more of it, because it wasn't coming naturally. I feel like for the longest time I've been 'adding' layers onto myself instead of taking them. While I think others might've not seen through the act - I was aware it wasn't a genuine value; does that makes sense?
(2) I don't know. I'm not sure I view it as an internal thing. Are you aware of the values you have that come from within you?
(3) It became something I ended up hiding behind.
with #2 , you answered with #1... "it wasn't easy to generate more of it" and "I was aware it wasn't a genuine value" , from these quotes, I would say the answer to #2 is yes.

With #3, you answered with #1 and #3 also. "I think others might've not seen through the act" and "It became something I ended up hiding behind."

If I take #1 and #2, if you are treating it as a limited resource, would that affect how others see it also?
(leading, following) and how would it affect your internal state in relation to that value. Your projection externally of the internal state and the congruence or in-congruence of that.

_________________
In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 6:12 am 
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peregrinus wrote: *
If I take #1 and #2, if you are treating it as a limited resource, would that affect how others see it also?
(leading, following) and how would it affect your internal state in relation to that value. Your projection externally of the internal state and the congruence or in-congruence of that.
Yes it would, because on some level it would show. I'm thinking of an analogy - the value of an apple tree is the apples, the apples come and go, the tree doesn't try to hold onto the apples forever.

I've noticed that for a long time I've been seeking some type of permanence/security within myself. I think this is how it has affected my internal state.


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 4:59 pm 
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TheDude wrote: *
Yes it would, because on some level it would show. I'm thinking of an analogy - the value of an apple tree is the apples, the apples come and go, the tree doesn't try to hold onto the apples forever.
I'm going to go with this as it tweaked me, after a day of stripping a house apart and rewiring.

Say you have an apple tree, its young, still learning..

It thinks i'm just a tree, thats it..

One year it starts being covered in this wonderful display of pretty flowers, people go oooh and aaaah at the sight, new insects and wildlife start visiting the tree and leaving with a spring in their step. A few weeks later, these strange things start growing all over the tree where the flowers were, gradually growing into fruit, getting bigger and bigger.. The tree notices people and animals flocking to it, taking the fruit from the branches or if they fell off, where they lay on the ground.

This goes on for weeks, every day, until one day, no more apples are left on the tree.

Gradually the visits tail off and the tree is trying to work out ways to get the flowers or fruit to come again, nothing it does seems to make a difference. Try and try again, nothing works. Finally, the tree resigns itself to the loss of all the attention, the loss of the flowers and fruit.

The tree thinks its just a tree again.

The days pass.

One day a flower starts to grow on one of the branches of the tree...

_________________
In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 6:04 pm 
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peregrinus wrote: *
TheDude wrote: *
Yes it would, because on some level it would show. I'm thinking of an analogy - the value of an apple tree is the apples, the apples come and go, the tree doesn't try to hold onto the apples forever.
I'm going to go with this as it tweaked me, after a day of stripping a house apart and rewiring.

Say you have an apple tree, its young, still learning..

It thinks i'm just a tree, thats it..

One year it starts being covered in this wonderful display of pretty flowers, people go oooh and aaaah at the sight, new insects and wildlife start visiting the tree and leaving with a spring in their step. A few weeks later, these strange things start growing all over the tree where the flowers were, gradually growing into fruit, getting bigger and bigger.. The tree notices people and animals flocking to it, taking the fruit from the branches or if they fell off, where they lay on the ground.

This goes on for weeks, every day, until one day, no more apples are left on the tree.

Gradually the visits tail off and the tree is trying to work out ways to get the flowers or fruit to come again, nothing it does seems to make a difference. Try and try again, nothing works. Finally, the tree resigns itself to the loss of all the attention, the loss of the flowers and fruit.

The tree thinks its just a tree again.

The days pass.

One day a flower starts to grow on one of the branches of the tree...
What a beautiful metaphor with the cycles.
You grow up to be a man.
Then come the shiny stuff of being a man (having your life in charge, confidence, indifference, logic, reason, ...) and everybody flocks to it, or/and try to take it from you.
Let's say you are like the tree, unable to do something (just letting life affect you). So people / women, do take everything they can from you. Rip you off of everything. Then what is left ? WHAT IS LEFT ?

I won't answer.

Moreover, You CAN decide to let people rip you off, use you, abuse you. OR NOT ! You can put them back in their place. And continue to stay shiny if you want, or cloaked if you prefer it that way.

There are so many things that come to mind. I'll stop it there.
Well Grinus again this was a thought provoking post from you. :ugeek:

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By searching first and posting questions only if you find no answers, everyone will be much happier
No matter HOW smart you think you ARE, there will ALWAYS be somebody who is smarter than you. So never underestimate people.


Fravia+


Last edited by GoldenBoy on Sat May 26, 2018 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 6:06 pm 
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What a great metaphor

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A truly powerful Man jealously guards his most precious resources; his independence and his ability to maneuver. True power isn’t controlling others, but the degree to which you control the course of your own life and your own choices. -Rational Male


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 11:58 pm 
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Here is a thought for you GoldenBoy...

The apples are meant to be taken, its how the seeds spread and how others know the apples are there.

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In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.


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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 12:29 am 
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The things I value the most highly strength, truthfulness, and courage can only be given never taken.

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A truly powerful Man jealously guards his most precious resources; his independence and his ability to maneuver. True power isn’t controlling others, but the degree to which you control the course of your own life and your own choices. -Rational Male


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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 9:17 am 
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peregrinus wrote: *
Here is a thought for you GoldenBoy...

The apples are meant to be taken, its how the seeds spread and how others know the apples are there.
Oh yeah. Got caught up in "women are out there to destroy you !!" (Patrice).
So they take your "apples" anyway, you can't help it.
But that's just your apples, that's not you as a tree who can always give more apples (provided the natural cycle).
You don't lose anything by 'giving up' your apples. You even 'gain' by them propagating the seeds, and that if your apples are good, they KNOW they'll come back again for more (like the mushrooms spots in the forest).
Others will enjoy you when you have something to offer 'flowers', apples ... but will leave when only you as a tree remains. Except if someone KNOWS that you provide the best apples that they tasted and just stay near you all year long as they know apples always end up appearing again, and they'll be there first :)
Altair wrote: *
The things I value the most highly strength, truthfulness, and courage can only be given never taken.
Well you can emasculate yourself of these qualities provided the right/wrong influence by people/women.

_________________
By searching first and posting questions only if you find no answers, everyone will be much happier
No matter HOW smart you think you ARE, there will ALWAYS be somebody who is smarter than you. So never underestimate people.


Fravia+


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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 4:06 pm 
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Altair wrote: *
The things I value the most highly strength, truthfulness, and courage can only be given never taken.
Not male values.


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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 4:51 pm 
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rant wrote: *
Altair wrote: *
The things I value the most highly strength, truthfulness, and courage can only be given never taken.
Not male values.
How do you figure?

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A truly powerful Man jealously guards his most precious resources; his independence and his ability to maneuver. True power isn’t controlling others, but the degree to which you control the course of your own life and your own choices. -Rational Male


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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 6:58 pm 
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Quote:
Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water.


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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 11:48 pm 
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Altair wrote: *
The things I value the most highly strength, truthfulness, and courage can only be given never taken.
Those are the things you value.. your internal values..

Seen from your viewpoint.

That is not the way others value your values.

They value the result of those, or the external projection of them.. eg, the way your courage enables you to react to situations, the way your strength helps you and the way they benefit from that. The way you will give them truthful responses and not play word games full of falsehoods. These are the ways they benefit from your internal value.

In much that the tree can produce apples, that is its internal value, together with all the things that go to enable that to happen. Not the apples themselves, the ability to generate them. The apples are the transient external manifestation of the collection of internal value (healthy, strong, good root system, good branches and leaves, enough sunlight, good enough flowers to attract pollenators, tasty genes, etc etc)

Externally this is seen as the apples, how they look and how they taste when consumed.

Losing or giving or having an apple taken does not affect the trees ability to generate more.

_________________
In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 12:48 am 
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Okay, but I still think that these are characteristic that are naturally selected for in men. I want to know if I can trust the guy next to me or if he is weak.

Others gaining from that value doesn't explain why it is valued more highly in one gender than another. No guy likes dealing with a male that isn't truthful, or is spineless.

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A truly powerful Man jealously guards his most precious resources; his independence and his ability to maneuver. True power isn’t controlling others, but the degree to which you control the course of your own life and your own choices. -Rational Male


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 12:59 am 
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Altair wrote: *
Okay, but I still think that these are characteristic that are naturally selected for in men. I want to know if I can trust the guy next to me or if he is weak.
How do you work out if he is trustworthy or not, weak or not?

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In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 8:42 pm 
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By observing his actions and inferring his values.

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A truly powerful Man jealously guards his most precious resources; his independence and his ability to maneuver. True power isn’t controlling others, but the degree to which you control the course of your own life and your own choices. -Rational Male


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