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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 1:48 pm 
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Some 'things' have been coming up recently. What I have realised is that I'm still affected by key moments in my young life - or rather, I'm still feeling the repurcussions of experiences which I thought I was over.

I must have been about 10-12 yrs of age. I was at a disco with Girls from a different school, as until 13 I was in an all boys educational environment. I sauntered up to the hottest chick there and brazenley asked if she wanted to dance. It was such a beautiful moment because there was not a single molecule of doubt in my mind. I saw it, I wanted it....aaaaand I was rejected by it. She looked at me as if I were the lowliest maggot in the world. Not even a 'Sorry, but er...'. No no, it was a look of such pitiful disdain that I completely blocked the emotion of it and compartmentalised it into the darkest vault I had. Fucking hell. The frame? I am not good enough or worthy of attractive girls. Infact, I am deeply unattractive to them.

Another fucking Disco. I don't know why I still bothered going to them at this point, given how appallingly unsuccesful I was at them(success meaning dancing with lot's of girls and stacking up the score to compare with friends at the end of the night). The DJ got all our names on a list and paired us up. He read my name, and then the girl who I was to dance with. She literally screamed and begged to get out if it, infront of a stunned and embarressed room, as if she were being sent to her execution - that's how passionate she was. I was like;

[ img ]

Anyway the frame was once again something along the lines of 'yeah, girls don't really like you. At all.' It completely 180'd in college 4 yrs laters after, coincedentally, I came into my looks(although I don't think I was horrendous to look at before but whatever) and was being hounded by girls. Now ten years after that, when I think I've moved forward, it becomes apparent that it still digs deep and I'm still that boy at the Disco.

How to overcome.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 2:16 pm 
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Leo wrote:
How to overcome.
Let it go.

You don't want someone whom you need to control
in order to be cool.
Quote:
"Just because someone rejects you, doesn't mean
that you have to reject yourself."

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 2:36 pm 
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"Just because someone rejects you, doesn't mean that you have to reject yourself."

Beautiful Jared :D

I think I just needed to admit this, becauase I had tricked myself into believing I was indifferent to these moments.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:08 pm 
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"Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering."

-----Miguel Ruiz

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:33 am 
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Leo wrote:
Some 'things' have been coming up recently. What I have realised is that I'm still affected by key moments in my young life - or rather, I'm still feeling the repurcussions of experiences which I thought I was over.

I must have been about 10-12 yrs of age. I was at a disco with Girls from a different school, as until 13 I was in an all boys educational environment. I sauntered up to the hottest chick there and brazenley asked if she wanted to dance. It was such a beautiful moment because there was not a single molecule of doubt in my mind. I saw it, I wanted it....aaaaand I was rejected by it. She looked at me as if I were the lowliest maggot in the world. Not even a 'Sorry, but er...'. No no, it was a look of such pitiful disdain that I completely blocked the emotion of it and compartmentalised it into the darkest vault I had. Fucking hell. The frame? I am not good enough or worthy of attractive girls. Infact, I am deeply unattractive to them.

Another fucking Disco. I don't know why I still bothered going to them at this point, given how appallingly unsuccesful I was at them(success meaning dancing with lot's of girls and stacking up the score to compare with friends at the end of the night). The DJ got all our names on a list and paired us up. He read my name, and then the girl who I was to dance with. She literally screamed and begged to get out if it, infront of a stunned and embarressed room, as if she were being sent to her execution - that's how passionate she was. I was like;

[ img ]

Anyway the frame was once again something along the lines of 'yeah, girls don't really like you. At all.' It completely 180'd in college 4 yrs laters after, coincedentally, I came into my looks(although I don't think I was horrendous to look at before but whatever) and was being hounded by girls. Now ten years after that, when I think I've moved forward, it becomes apparent that it still digs deep and I'm still that boy at the Disco.

How to overcome.
Hi Leo,

I don't know if this will help you but I read your wording, as the boy who experienced this at 12 years in first person (POV), you seem to vividly recreate this in your mind and thus giving this more power than necesary. You could experiment this by seeing you in 3rd person (dissosiaction) and be the most neutral consiousness in the room actually seeing this happening to you, from outside.

I've been called you are the Weirdest guyby a girl that I tought she was really interested in hooking up (yes I've fucked up the timing) but the feeling of rejection it's the same, one girl ran scared in front of me and I knew her from 2 months just invited her to go for a walk, not properly calibrated my gut, but what helped me pass this subjective experiencies was seeing this in 3rd person and not judging it, just experimenting this as a expectator and then, as the actor but with the same level of NON judgement towards me.

That way, I can feel the angles and all the facets of the energy in question that is trapped, and be more open to let it go because I got acquainted with it and knew what was trying to tell me, I gave the energy sufficent space to roll around and express then, just opened the gates...

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 3:38 am 
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I can relate.

It was a school dance in 5th or 6th grade. I walked up to her and asked her to dance, but she wasn't interested. At that moment I remember feeling crushed! I wanted to go home. I stored the feelings deep within myself. Months and years passed.

Recently, this memory came back up and I 'thought' I had forgotten about it. I addressed it, feelings and all, and processed what it was telling me. I forgave myself for what had happened and understood what really happened; I asked her to dance, she wasn't interested and end of story.

Forgiveness, 'letting go', might go hand in hand, because by not forgiving I was holding onto it.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 6:37 am 
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"Having been fucked is no excuse for being all fucked up."

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 6:39 am 
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:lol:

Where's that quoted from Jared?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:02 am 
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Jared dropping some serious gems here.

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Take it easy, man. But take it.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:17 am 
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Find a releasing technique that suits you and work with it
GP Walsh's Allowing is very popular here for example.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:34 pm 
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You could reframe it. Like "remember that time that girl refused to dance with me cause she thought it was so hot that she couldn't handle it. That was pretty funny". :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:48 am 
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There are a few ways you can approach this, just going to give some context.

There is a difference between beliefs, and emotional experiences that were never processed that leave triggered responses in the nervous system.

This is something that actually happened. You, as a child with no context or reason to believe otherwise, walked up to a girl that your nature told you was what to do. She rejected you, as far as you could tell in that moment, just for being you, which is very painful and not at all what you expected.

This is quite literally the equivalent of touching a stove. When I do x, y happens, and it's horrible. Rejection or something implying you are broken/flawed/not a worthy member of the tribe to mate is worse than physical pain. The association is made because that is literally its job. X=Y, avoid pain. This is not a 'belief' - there is no convincing this, intellectually, 'it's just a girl so who cares?'

So you touch a stove once and then you don't do it again, but guess what? You're not sexually attracted to a stove. You're not emotionally attracted to a stove. You don't have 100 trillion living cells in your body biologically programmed to be with stoves.

Now you have quite a conflict.

There is an embedded attraction and aversion in the system now, something you want that simultaneously triggers one the biggest kick in the balls feelings in the world: I am rejected simply for being who I am. Something must be wrong with me inherently..?

The way this is compensated for is by elaborate stories created. One moment its to belittle them to try to convince ourselves it didn't matter. Or to build ourselves up. When I say stories I mean entire aspects of personality and how the world works, all from a painful experience not processed.

You can tell yourself you don't care or are over it or "whatever her loss" til you are blue in the face but that experience and association is in the system.

You would be astonished at how many men 10, 20, 30+ years later - all of their 'working on themselves,' their whole attitude about women, their entire way of relating to the opposite sex and to themselves is heavily built upon proving 15 year old girls wrong, because it's all layers of bandaids that are constructed to avoid feeling that original wound at all cost.

The only true solution is to go right into the core of it. It is the emotional equivalent of running into a burning building because something of infinite value is in there. It is the most courageous thing you can do, 10000x more than any so called inner work that is just about toughening the band aids or giving you a new story or way of trying to interpret the situation. Do this and you are one of the few. You are the only animal on the planet who can consciously choose to step into its own temporary suffering for the sake of tremendous growth beyond its programming.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:07 am 
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Flow83 wrote:
You are the only animal on the planet who can consciously choose to step into its own temporary suffering for the sake of tremendous growth beyond its programming.
...possibly the only animal on the planet. ;)

again:
Quote:
"What is true, doesn't need your support.
Your lies need your support."

----M.Ruiz

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:11 am 
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Flow83 wrote:
There are a few ways you can approach this, just going to give some context.

There is a difference between beliefs, and emotional experiences that were never processed that leave triggered responses in the nervous system.

This is something that actually happened. You, as a child with no context or reason to believe otherwise, walked up to a girl that your nature told you was what to do. She rejected you, as far as you could tell in that moment, just for being you, which is very painful and not at all what you expected.

This is quite literally the equivalent of touching a stove. When I do x, y happens, and it's horrible. Rejection or something implying you are broken/flawed/not a worthy member of the tribe to mate is worse than physical pain. The association is made because that is literally its job. X=Y, avoid pain. This is not a 'belief' - there is no convincing this, intellectually, 'it's just a girl so who cares?'

So you touch a stove once and then you don't do it again, but guess what? You're not sexually attracted to a stove. You're not emotionally attracted to a stove. You don't have 100 trillion living cells in your body biologically programmed to be with stoves.

Now you have quite a conflict.

There is an embedded attraction and aversion in the system now, something you want that simultaneously triggers one the biggest kick in the balls feelings in the world: I am rejected simply for being who I am. Something must be wrong with me inherently..?

The way this is compensated for is by elaborate stories created. One moment its to belittle them to try to convince ourselves it didn't matter. Or to build ourselves up. When I say stories I mean entire aspects of personality and how the world works, all from a painful experience not processed.

You can tell yourself you don't care or are over it or "whatever her loss" til you are blue in the face but that experience and association is in the system.

You would be astonished at how many men 10, 20, 30+ years later - all of their 'working on themselves,' their whole attitude about women, their entire way of relating to the opposite sex and to themselves is heavily built upon proving 15 year old girls wrong, because it's all layers of bandaids that are constructed to avoid feeling that original wound at all cost.

The only true solution is to go right into the core of it. It is the emotional equivalent of running into a burning building because something of infinite value is in there. It is the most courageous thing you can do, 10000x more than any so called inner work that is just about toughening the band aids or giving you a new story or way of trying to interpret the situation. Do this and you are one of the few. You are the only animal on the planet who can consciously choose to step into its own temporary suffering for the sake of tremendous growth beyond its programming.
Spot on Flow. I also think, with all due respect to Fufe's suggestion, that becoming aware that it's still an emotional trigger for me is of more value - to me, right now - than the notion of trying to get rid of it via releasing technique. I've tried techniques, but they're in vain unless you accept that it really did happen, or was an actual real time event and not a figment of one's imagination. And so;
MattD wrote:
You could reframe it. Like "remember that time that girl refused to dance with me cause she thought it was so hot that she couldn't handle it. That was pretty funny". :lol:
What would be the point? That isn't what happened at all, and I would be lying to myself. There's a difference between accepting a situation happened and fabricating the frame of it, and accepting it whilst understanding that it doesn't have to inform your next move.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:14 am 
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Dali wrote:

Hi Leo,

I don't know if this will help you but I read your wording, as the boy who experienced this at 12 years in first person (POV), you seem to vividly recreate this in your mind and thus giving this more power than necesary. You could experiment this by seeing you in 3rd person (dissosiaction) and be the most neutral consiousness in the room actually seeing this happening to you, from outside.
That's an interesting idea. I'll do that as an experiment.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:41 pm 
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I'd be interested to see what happens if you call up the experience, with no particular agenda at all, just allow the tape to replay, whatever that means.

If any emotional reactions start to happen, or especially if any part of your body starts speaking up - tension, energy moving, etc. - put your attention on it and immediately stay with the feeling as much as you can. There will be a default reaction to start thinking about it, which is a way of avoiding the reaction itself. Keep putting the attention back to what is actually happening in the body/system with a posture like you are just there giving support to a friend or child who just got injured - you wouldn't yell at him or tell him to get over it as it's happening, you're just basically there offering support.

"Thinking won't set you free, feeling will"

When you are fully feeling whatever you are feeling without thinking about it, you are 'in the moment.' Then the mind is freed up to do what it is actually great at, instead of using all of its energy towards safety. All of this actually purifies your analytical and observational skills.

Trying to release this stuff away, well, what you resist persists. The stuff that's ancient or has a strong foundation has always been about releasing your grip on it, all the justifications and ways of avoidance, so you can finally fully feel it, which allows it to process and you see it for what it actually is. Let me know, if you prefer via PM that's cool, what happens specifically as you do that, should you decide to try it out.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:02 pm 
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Quote:
MattD wrote:
You could reframe it. Like "remember that time that girl refused to dance with me cause she thought it was so hot that she couldn't handle it. That was pretty funny". :lol:


What would be the point? That isn't what happened at all, and I would be lying to myself. There's a difference between accepting a situation happened and fabricating the frame of it, and accepting it whilst understanding that it doesn't have to inform your next move.
The thing is, why keep dwelling on it and identifying with it in such a way that is hurting you. Everyone has been rejected before. One of my friends in particular is rejected on a weekly basis and i've seen girls literally run away from him. But he is an awesome guy to hangout with and a lot of girls love him.
You guys say reframing is a band aid. Sooo if i'm insecure and I believe i'm a loser then what does that fall under? Does that mean that I'm destined to be that way for the rest of my life because if I try to improve myself it's just a band aid? That's not true at all. There are very successful people and famous musicians that admit to visualizing and doing affirmations throughout their life before they reached success. So what does that say about them? They're just wearing a lot of band aids?
I understand what you guys are saying and I agree with it. You can't run away from your emotions and you have to man up and face them. But after that then what? You need to take responsibility for your life at some point. You can't just stare at the ego and confirm that it's there. There's guys that post stuff on here that seem like they're having a really tough time with socializing in general. You can't tell them you have to just dive into your emotions and sit with it. That's only the start of it, you have to take action too.
Just to be clear though, my question is, if re framing and creating a new story is a band aid, then what is someone's negative story that they tell themselves on a day to day basis? His story is when he was 13 a girl rejected him and it hurts. Just for arguments sake I'll pretend this happened to me. So this was something that happened years ago and I’ve built up an identity around it like most people do when something hurtful happens because humans tend to focus on the negative more. So now that I have this “identity” here, something needs to be done about it. Maybe I can pretend like it never happened. But no, I can't because it did happen and it really hurt me. Maybe there's the possibility that I’m really overreacting to this and it's not a big deal at all. No that's not right because this really did happen and it really did hurt so I have to believe in this story and keep my emotions attached to that outcome. Maybe I can pretend like the girl wanted me so bad that she just couldn't handle it and she felt really embarrassed because she was only 12-13 years old and had no experience with boys so she had to reject me because she didn't know what else to do so she acted like she didn't like me so her friends would laugh. No I can't do that because that's just a band aid and it happened this way and I would be lying to myself about what my life is like because the truth is I put a lot of time and built up a lot of evidence to support that this is what my life is like and anything that goes against it is false. And I would be fabricating the frame of it and the truth is that I’m not successful and girls aren't attracted to me. So this is my story and it's true and I’m sticking with it. So what I'm going to do is dive into this emotion and be with it because that's all I can do. I can't try to look at it any other way, I can't try to spin it into something positive or visualize anything else because that wouldn't be healthy. Maybe if I sit with this emotion long enough I'll stop believing that it's real and it will disappear on its own. Does that sound right?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:12 pm 
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Again, there are different things going on with people. Working on one does not discount the other, nor does it deny the other things exist.

A triggered response to something is not a story. There is emotional content there, and a story is created to try to explain it. This has nothing to do with walking around telling yourself a story that 'this girl rejected me and it sucks, girls don't like me.' If someone was attacked by a dog and has a fear of them they aren't 'telling themselves a story' about dogs which is the cause. They actually will be telling themselves all kinds of stories, but those are not the source, they are trying to wrap a context around the feeling. Telling themselves all day 'dogs are awesome!' will not do very much to the ingrained response in the nervous system, which is the same mechanism that rides a bike. It's not a belief about dogs or girls. That doesn't mean those things can't exist.

That's one type of work.

Most of us also have plenty of non-useful stories and ideas about things we repeat to ourselves all day, that don't have such a specific basis (they actually do but that's another story). Observing them and focusing on other things, reframing, they can serve a function there. They don't heal traumas, but it can have a lot of positive benefits for guys.

I don't use that term but if I did, a Band-Aid is not some useless piece of shit, it's a tool that helps healing it is just not always the right tool for the job. Nor is diving into emotions.

The bottom line though is that If you don't have unprocessed shit around something, and you are able to see something directly for what it is, you don't have ANY story about it. Do you get upset if the clouds move a certain way? No, because you have not made any associations with them and yourself, you don't take it personally.

Walking around with the thought 'all girls dig me!' is going to be more positive and probably yield better results than "all girls hate me!" of course. I'm not going to say all work like that is pointless.

Or you can break these associations so you don't need to have a story one way or the other - there's no trigger around a girl rejecting you meaning anything about you, and you don't need to tell yourself it's because you are just so sexy she couldn't handle it. That's fine as a tool if it helps you. If the end goal is to be a self-actualized adult male and live in the real world where each moment is unique and each girl is and each situation is what it is, and you can be fine with it and treat it accordingly, that's a particular animal.

You will be creative because you have no choice, it's human nature. Visualizing and all of that stuff is great. It can be fun and effective and even a useful tool as part of healing. My experience is it is much more effective when you are clear on something than when it is coming from a place of trying to compensate.
Quote:
Maybe I can pretend like it never happened. But no, I can't because it did happen and it really hurt me. Maybe there's the possibility that I’m really overreacting to this and it's not a big deal at all. No that's not right because this really did happen and it really did hurt so I have to believe in this story and keep my emotions attached to that outcome. Maybe I can pretend like the girl wanted me so bad that she just couldn't handle it and she felt really embarrassed because she was only 12-13 years old and had no experience with boys so she had to reject me because she didn't know what else to do so she acted like she didn't like me so her friends would laugh. No I can't do that because that's just a band aid and it happened this way and I would be lying to myself about what my life is like because the truth is I put a lot of time and built up a lot of evidence to support that this is what my life is like and anything that goes against it is false. And I would be fabricating the frame of it and the truth is that I’m not successful and girls aren't attracted to me. So this is my story and it's true and I’m sticking with it. So what I'm going to do is dive into this emotion and be with it because that's all I can do. I can't try to look at it any other way, I can't try to spin it into something positive or visualize anything else because that wouldn't be healthy. Maybe if I sit with this emotion long enough I'll stop believing that it's real and it will disappear on its own. Does that sound right?
None of that mental gymnastics sounds right to me.

You're arguing all sorts of points no one actually said. Who said you can't visualize alternatives? "Sit with this emotion long enough until you stop believing it's real" is literally the opposite of what was suggested. It almost sounds like you are arguing in some two-sided debate where you need to discredit an opponent, but there isn't one here.

The girl responded the way she did. It hurt.

Period. That's what is dealt with.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:09 am 
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It's not one approach vs another, just using different tools for different jobs.

http://youtu.be/X99_2AdgXzg

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:48 am 
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Matt, it's just that running a counter script is actually like resistance to me. It wouldn't help. I see attraction toward me all the time now - but I have realised that I am too held back and still far too afraid of rejection and it prevents me from taking control even when I'm in the drivers seat. It is what it is, and better that I embrace it and accept it rather than create another story, which is just exhausting.

Flow, I will do what you suggested in your other post and get back to you in this thread. Thanks dude.


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