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 Post subject: Guilty to let go
PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2014 11:34 pm 
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The constant fight of trying to let go of personal demons, cover up past events and be reinforced by the external world always seemed to be a futile one. It seemed as if I wanted to jump onto a boat and sail away into the sun but was scared to leave everybody behind and was just thinking about it to cover up this fear and stop it from leading me into self-realization.

Things that were either actually reinforced (or just perceived by me as reinforcement, which is really the same thing) were binding me. I didn't want to let go because of one simple reason - I felt guilty to do so.

Self-validation meant leaving others behind. In a strange way (and as corny as it sounds), I was motivated by my love of others and fear of being alone. I could potentially dwarf others. Or I might never have the same relationship with them again. I was looking out for them and holding on to guilt to avoid hurting them. Shunning away parts of me that could take up their space.

This altruistic reason was motivated by survival. I could be left behind. And the longer I shut parts of me away, the louder they became. This becomes a cycle of blocking out and fear. I could only fragment myself for so long. It was either letting things out or becoming crazy.

This is only a ledge that has shown itself in a long period of feeling like I was drowning. But it is a strange feeling.

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 Post subject: Re: Guilty to let go
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 12:19 am 
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Reference group. You decided to be there.
Yet, you owe them nothing. They owe you nothing.

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 Post subject: Re: Guilty to let go
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 10:51 pm 
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I wish someone who went through something like this chimed in. I seem to be on the same page as you.

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 Post subject: Re: Guilty to let go
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 9:27 am 
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Your situation is unexplored territory because it only applies to YOU. Sure, there might be similarities that you can use to gain a perspective, but in the end, you need to look within and shine a light on some of the things that have been kept in the dark.

"If you are going through hell, keep walking"

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 Post subject: Re: Guilty to let go
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 4:18 pm 
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moose35 wrote:
I could potentially dwarf others.
Would that be so bad?
moose35 wrote:
I was looking out for them and holding on to guilt to avoid hurting them.
Really? this just does not feel right to me, on a gut level.. There is something else here, something you are not saying.
moose35 wrote:
Shunning away parts of me that could take up their space.
Why? Really, why?
moose35 wrote:
This altruistic reason was motivated by survival. I could be left behind.
Whos survival?

And I strongly doubt it was 'altruistic' - look it up, for example, read a dictionary or see : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism
Quote:
Pure altruism consists of sacrificing something for someone other than the self (e.g. sacrificing time, energy or possessions) with no expectation of any compensation or benefits, either direct, or indirect (e.g., receiving recognition for the act of giving).
How can it be possibly motivated by your survival and not being left behind and also be altruistic? hmm

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 Post subject: Re: Guilty to let go
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 6:12 pm 
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Your whole post is written in past tense -- so are you over this and sharing from the other side?

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 Post subject: Re: Guilty to let go
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 6:54 pm 
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Location: The side of a mountain somewhere...
Flow83 wrote:
Your whole post is written in past tense -- so are you over this and sharing from the other side?
This is the pertinent question.

If it is past and not a problem anymore, then maybe you are a good person to share some insight with Rider.

If you actually meant to write it present tense, and are currently suffering over it, then it sounds an awful lot like previous posts of yours that seem to come by every couple months. See: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3748&p=37483#p37483 and viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3659&p=36444#p36444

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 Post subject: Re: Guilty to let go
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 9:05 pm 
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Quite a lot of great responses. I will, slightly ashamedly, admit that I waited a couple of minutes to think about how I was going to defend myself, especially by peregrinus' questions (which were all completely on point). Thanks for bringing that stuff up.

Rider, if you wish to ask me anything, don't hesitate to shoot me a PM. I just wanted to make sure you were looking within, and not making mistakes that I have made (always trying to find the answer "out there").
peregrinus wrote:
moose35 wrote:
I could potentially dwarf others.
Would that be so bad?
In my case, it was growing up with parents who had emotional baggage that caught on, while also needing to cater to said baggage. The story isn't important, but I felt anxiety anytime dwarfing someone was a remote possibility.
peregrinus wrote:
moose35 wrote:
I was looking out for them and holding on to guilt to avoid hurting them.
Really? this just does not feel right to me, on a gut level.. There is something else here, something you are not saying.
I wouldn't say it was my intention to use guilt as a defense. I was simply afraid of hurting someone who could easily hurt me back tenfold. The threat was there, so it's fear, not really guilt. Guess I wanted to come off as more noble :lol:
peregrinus wrote:
moose35 wrote:
Shunning away parts of me that could take up their space.
Why? Really, why?

Because that meant replacing them, potentially. It's attachment to others (not just them in general). For which the reason, is survival.
peregrinus wrote:
moose35 wrote:
This altruistic reason was motivated by survival. I could be left behind.
Whos survival?

And I strongly doubt it was 'altruistic' - look it up, for example, read a dictionary or see : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism
Quote:
Pure altruism consists of sacrificing something for someone other than the self (e.g. sacrificing time, energy or possessions) with no expectation of any compensation or benefits, either direct, or indirect (e.g., receiving recognition for the act of giving).
How can it be possibly motivated by your survival and not being left behind and also be altruistic? hmm
You are completely right, 'G. I was just looking out for me (I still am, I just didn't want to accept it). There was nothing altruistic about it, just a light I chose to paint it under to make "my demons" seem more complex/harder to crack/harder to accept. Like the deep layers of it being both good and bad, instead of something that's just there (and it's OK for it to be there) made the whole story function. And I didn't want it to stop.

Which all points to this still being an imperfect pit stop on the journey. There is still a whole lot else to uncover and see.

Flow83 wrote:
Your whole post is written in past tense -- so are you over this and sharing from the other side?
It certainly feels like it. To be honest, I'm afraid I'm deluding myself, which is sometimes a bit uncomfortable to accept and face. There is still a lot to let go of on my end regarding this question, which I ask myself maybe too often.
Meraki wrote:

If you actually meant to write it present tense, and are currently suffering over it, then it sounds an awful lot like previous posts of yours that seem to come by every couple months. See: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3748&p=37483#p37483 and viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3659&p=36444#p36444
This was the toughest to look at. I think it is different simply because, while I still feel and am uncovering quite a bit of pain inside, my previous thought process was "Shit I can't and won't accept this, how do I end it", whereas now it's more of "If feel this, there's a reason for it and you should look into it". It's not always perfect, but I try.

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 Post subject: Re: Guilty to let go
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 11:45 pm 
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Nice self honesty.

Now here's another question: what happens to something when you let go of it?

what happens to you when you "let go of it all"?

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 Post subject: Re: Guilty to let go
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 12:53 am 
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Nothing belongs to us.... We have no capability
to possess a thing or a thought. Go it must.

Now is new.

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 Post subject: Re: Guilty to let go
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 11:38 am 
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Flow83 wrote:
Nice self honesty.

Now here's another question: what happens to something when you let go of it?

what happens to you when you "let go of it all"?
Looks like Jared wrote the answer :lol: But yeah, the attachment doesn't really exist. Things always have and are always going to function independent of my perception or need of them.

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 Post subject: Re: Guilty to let go
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 1:47 pm 
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"The facts all contribute only to setting the problem, not to its solution."
---- L. Wittgenstein

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 Post subject: Re: Guilty to let go
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 1:56 pm 
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:geek: I know you can answer it philosophically and of course what Jared said is accurate.

Your post(s) however are dripping with implications about what your model is about what will or might happen when you let go, self-accept and so on. Including the doubt about whether you are deluding yourself. So humor me if you will, and bring out the "this is what it looks like, feels like etc when someone has really reached self-acceptance, let it all go" or whatever terms you like.

If you did just drop the identification with some of the moral superiority defense mechanisms that recur on your posts, what was the experience internally, externally?

These are personal and experiential questions.

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 Post subject: Re: Guilty to let go
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 3:02 pm 
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Flow83 wrote:
:geek: I know you can answer it philosophically and of course what Jared said is accurate.

Your post(s) however are dripping with implications about what your model is about what will or might happen when you let go, self-accept and so on. Including the doubt about whether you are deluding yourself. So humor me if you will, and bring out the "this is what it looks like, feels like etc when someone has really reached self-acceptance, let it all go" or whatever terms you like.

If you did just drop the identification with some of the moral superiority defense mechanisms that recur on your posts, what was the experience internally, externally?

These are personal and experiential questions.
I get quite self-conscious whenever I try to answer these questions, which has to do with what you are saying about the moral superiority.

The experience was just a gradual lessening of the "this shouldn't be here, how do I make this go away" feeling. A reduction in the importance feeling of what's right, and more of a focus on what's there and why. So inner work, the aim of which was introspection, and not change.

Externally, I don't think as many things changed as I expected to. More honesty and openness from people, more attention from some girls. Many other things that I lamented over have stayed, but the level of distress over them has gone down internally.

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 Post subject: Re: Guilty to let go
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 3:18 pm 
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moose35 wrote:


Externally, I don't think as many things changed as I expected to. More honesty and openness from people, more attention from some girls. Many other things that I lamented over have stayed, but the level of distress over them has gone down internally.
I was invited in by a stranger just this morning.
Food and drink included.

I didn't expect it, yet it happened. Then, it's a question
of yes or no, whether I accept or decline. No secret demands for it
to happen.

"The world is independent of my will."

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 Post subject: Re: Guilty to let go
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 4:18 pm 
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If you are holding something tightly, trying to control it, suppress it, bend it to your will, shame or condemn it in the hopes of it disappearing, and so on -- when you stop, there's one thing and one thing only that ever happens.

It is now free to be exactly what it is. Whatever that is, with absolutely no concern about what you want it to be or thought it would be. It does not acquire superpowers or become "perfect." It may stay or may go.

The same applies to your own nature. You will like the things you like, be the way you are, express yourself the way you do. You will finally do so unapologetically, with the freedom and profound contentment that comes from simply being without the concept that you are supposed to be something else. Like a cat sitting there purring.

It may not be anything that appears amazing, trumps everyone, or makes you appear like the ultimate badass. It may lead to zero stories that will sound impressive to men on the Internet.

What if happiness from within meant that your happiness actually comes from within. This COULD mean you end up with almost nothing to show for it other than the feeling of happiness. Then what?

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 Post subject: Re: Guilty to let go
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 5:42 pm 
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Flow83 wrote:
If you are holding something tightly, trying to control it, suppress it, bend it to your will, shame or condemn it in the hopes of it disappearing, and so on -- when you stop, there's one thing and one thing only that ever happens.

It is now free to be exactly what it is. Whatever that is, with absolutely no concern about what you want it to be or thought it would be. It does not acquire superpowers or become "perfect." It may stay or may go.

The same applies to your own nature. You will like the things you like, be the way you are, express yourself the way you do. You will finally do so unapologetically, with the freedom and profound contentment that comes from simply being without the concept that you are supposed to be something else. Like a cat sitting there purring.

It may not be anything that appears amazing, trumps everyone, or makes you appear like the ultimate badass. It may lead to zero stories that will sound impressive to men on the Internet.

What if happiness from within meant that your happiness actually comes from within. This COULD mean you end up with almost nothing to show for it other than the feeling of happiness. Then what?
Yeah exactly. I am finding this to be true (although, I repeat, by no means am I 100% happy. I still feel bouts of suppression/repression). But that's the thing - before, if letting go meant something completely unexpected, I had a feeling of panic. I still have that feeling (albeit in a lighter sense), but I see it for what it is - normal fear of the unknown. Which leads to the simple happiness you're talking about, because stepping into it is something that's OK to do.

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 Post subject: Re: Guilty to let go
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 5:19 pm 
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If the others you mention are at the edge of the cliff or tipping over it, if not already on the way down, give me a good reason for being concerned about choosing to do the right thing and leaving them behind. If you love others, the best you can do for them is to rise above them, become a shining example and inspire them. If they are interested they will let you know and then you can help them. peregrinus and Kidd have been doing it for many years and keep on doing it, devoting their time to many of us. They are true altruists.

Your friends want you to be yourself, to express yourself honestly. If they don't they are not your friends.

Fear of being alone? Whatever happened to
peregrinus wrote:
The Kidd!! wrote:
If you are your own best friend, you may be alone, but you'll never be lonely. 8-)
Indeed

This is the kicker.

This is the golden egg.....

Shame that so few come to realise it in their lifetimes.
As you change radically to become a real man, and a mature human being in general, you become less compatible with people in your life and you share less goals with them. This is natural and healthy. Maybe your ways will part but there are billions of people out there and you also become more compatible with many other people who share your goals and attitudes. "If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or objects." - Albert Einstein

It is difficult to go against your primal emotions, herd mentality and fear of being the odd man out. You can comply with the herd to not be the odd man out, but bear in mind that most people are immature and don't have a clue about the most important things in life. Hence their lives are miserable and so will be yours. Or you can have a different mindset and behavior, stand out, be an independent thinker, free and autonomous, and live a happy life. You choose.
peregrinus wrote:
There have been many people through my life that have tried to drag me kicking and screaming back into the matrix, telling me I am wrong for believing what I do, I do believe it though and they have failed thus far to drag me back in. In some ways my life would have been easier in the matrix however I know that it would not have been happier.

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 Post subject: Re: Guilty to let go
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 7:15 pm 
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zogler wrote:

Your friends want you to be yourself, to express yourself honestly. If they don't they are not your friends.
Oh I don't agree with this one, zogler. My friendships are all mutual value exchange, no matter how it's painted.

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 Post subject: Re: Guilty to let go
PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 4:46 am 
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viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3054

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