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 Post subject: Re: Father's day
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:18 pm 
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Hi Flow83! as usual a very good post.

I like the part about the prejudices and projections one makes about people when we don't know them personally, I did that specifically in those terms and noticed it immediately, like 'grinus (calm powerful mysterious guy) or Kidd!! (badass overanalytical seemingly tyranical genius) Star (bad ass mofo that ridiculizes bitches for being stupid in front of he) or even you (super mindful relaxed and profound guy) or every other strong personality here in forums.

So I see it something like this. My mind gathers evidence of what I think they are, like A (he said this) connects to B (he must be this way) about the data I have and make a mental picture of a dissembodied entity, but that doesn't make it true. In fact that gets sometimes in the way of hearing the message this dudes want me to see and not the projection of the character I made in my mind about them, so the message gets discarried because my ego got it embelished it or polluted the message.

I have a dozen :lol: of questions though, I'm sometiomes like a bitch filling the voids TOO, like right now :lol: :lol: :

:?:
So If all that I do is a projection of my limited and wild mind or imagination (ego), then what else is true?
Just to notice this falsness or catching up mentally when filling the mental voids with our own stereotypical bullshit about others, do this gets immediately disowned?
Can I stop to do that? or is it fine that my mind automatically do that, and just bringing awareness to this, is fine?
Based of what you write, how one reachs that one percent of "not based on me" perspective of others, and gain access to that authenticity of the experience?
Do you personally think that this Jungian archetypes carry some of the knowledge of subconsious characters/entitites?
Also, I see that you frame all this in terms of energy and not a character (may be the same) but, can you explain a little bit more about this?

I think I got the answer but I have doubts of the mind doing that automatically and me believing this, I fall for this more often than I like to admit. Because I do the same thing with woman.

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Last edited by Dali on Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Father's day
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:46 am 
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Hey man

So just to be clear, it's not about people's nature, which is obviously there. Some of us ARE more chill, wild, ballsy, aggressive, everyone has their personalities and temperaments. However everyone does have access to the full range, but will express them in their own unique way. Otherwise there would be no point.

I am talking about when you take an aspect of that nature and project all your stuff onto it, turning them into an archetype of that aspect (usually w/ a hero or villain quality) and stop making them a person in the real world. IE, they are always just 'the badass' guy or the 'mysterious guy'. Like his whole life is just the james bond action movie and he's always in this badass 'alpha male' mode and not a guy who goes to the post office and shit. As though every conversation with a female is some magic moment where they are in that character. Could be done in the negative side too -- 'oh this guy probably just hits women with a club and takes them to his cave and he's a jerk.'

Because it is human nature to do this, this is what exploits the fanboys of "gurus" and such. You really start to believe in this delusional universe where once you finally get this down, once you finally become that "lover of all women" or the "ultimate alpha male" that life just transforms into this beautiful porn movie that also happens to fix all of your other emotional, financial and inter personal issues somehow. You compare yourself to an impossible ideal, which is a disowned part of yourself that you romanticize (or villainize) and it keeps getting reinforced. Oh, you just need the next course-- oh you just don't really get it yet, if you really had it down like the way the advanced guys do, she would have slept with you right there on the dancefloor. There are a lot of guys who prey on this. However any time there is a format where there is someone who has it together or advanced, or an authority figure, guys project in this way onto them. Some will think the guy is the savior of mankind, others will think he's a scumbag piece of shit.

The inverse of the same coin is when it's -- I must destroy this quality because it's bad. IE i'm too much of a nice guy and I can't be "beta" so i must undo everything like that. If I say anything other than teasing a girl she automatically thinks I'm a loser.
You'll start thinking you can't smile to a little girl playing in the park because that's "symp" and your badass character would never do that.. a little exaggerated but actually not that much.

Quote:
So If all that I do is a projection of my limited and wild mind or imagination (ego), then what else is true?
This is the million dollar question. What's absolutely true when there is NO thought, or story about it, and only the direct, *actual experience*? There IS a reality underneath it. The truth is the one thing that does not alter from person to person, that never changes, and does not appear/disappear like forms and bodies do.

Down a level -- this is guys who just see what is *actually* happening in a situation or interaction. They will tell you it's not really their mind. They are not referencing stuff they read.. "oh their body language leaned to the left, I learned that this must mean.." -- they are not super focused on the words they are saying and trying to figure out what they mean. They just GET what is *actually* going down, which may be completely divorced from the words being said or actions taken. This is not in the mind, and that drives the mind crazy, because it wants to understand it.

If they can see it and also know how to lead it where they want, it will look like jedi magic to an outsider who is only seeing what logically seemed to be happening.
Quote:
Just to notice this falsness or catching up mentally when filling the mental voids with our own stereotypical bullshit about others, do this gets immediately disowned?
It's because it's disowned that you have the particularly strong judgement about it. Again that doesn't mean you LIKE it, but it doesn't have that edge to it that makes your skin crawl.
Quote:
Can I stop to do that? or is it fine that my mind automatically do that, and just bringing awareness to this, is fine?
Try it and you'll quickly see you can't stop it. It happens WAY before conscious thought.
Quote:
Based of what you write, how one reachs that one percent of "not based on me" perspective of others, and gain access to that authenticity of the experience?
It's a long journey, one way it can start is by being 100%, no BS honest about everything you are thinking and experiencing, accepting it fully without denying it. Then questioning it. You can start with more obvious things. Notice if you're out somewhere and some guy or girl just seems to be repulsive to you. Notice the whole thing being created and then marvel at the fact that the only thing you actually experience is seeing some guy standing there, and what went on.

To me one of the best and easiest places to start is body awareness meditation. Sit down, close your eyes and feel the energy in your head/face. Notice your mind immediately makes a picture of the face, then creates a context, a barrier there where your face starts and it ends. Let that dissolve and keep going into what you are actually experiencing without the thought. Pretend you never saw a reflection of your face before or were born blind.
Quote:
Do you personally think that this Jungian archetypes carry some of the knowledge of subconsious characters/entitites?
Don't really know what this means.

An archetype is an exaggerated representation of a particular characteristic in order to demonstrate it. Greek Gods, millions of other characters - they show one aspect of something in us in a more obvious way to help us get in touch with it and/or notice our disownership of it.
Quote:
Also, I see that you frame all this in terms of energy and not a character (may be the same) but, can you explain a little bit more about this?
I think the previous sentence touches on that. Every single one of us has the "energy" available to us that can put its foot down and say no, fuck you, that crosses my boundary. You'll do it in your own unique way based on your temperament-- a la the beginning of the post. You also have the energy to be compassionate to someone who is suffering who needs it, or to be playful with a little kid.

If you think you are supposed to actually BE one of these archetypal characters all the time, instead of a complete human being, you will cut off access to everything else. IE, the guy being "cool guy" all the time that soon starts to seem like a one dimensional douche.
Quote:
Because I do the same thing with woman.
The amount of stuff we project onto women in particular is almost unbelievable. The more of it you see, and the more of it that drops away, it will be impossible to fathom how much of a 'big deal' the topic was. You'll see things more as they are and stop trying to get things from them that they cannot possibly give you.

As long as you ascribe attributes to them like your sense of value, acceptance, love/approval, accomplishment, being a man, being good enough, being badass enough (ie "look everyone, look how much I don't care about women!") then it will be impossible to reach a level of peace and indifference. You will be a slave to some degree and telling yourself you aren't will just be posturing.

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 Post subject: Re: Father's day
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:51 am 
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Enjoyed reading that post Flow :)

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 Post subject: Re: Father's day
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:46 am 
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This post is so next level :)

Thanks for your reply Flow83!

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 Post subject: Re: Father's day
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:08 pm 
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The Kidd!! wrote:
Me? A misogynist? Poppycock! :lol:
When I was so plugged into the Matrix, it was difficult to see it any other way.

The Kidd!! wrote:
I LOVE bitches!...I just don't trust them very much.
Much like I feel now, but with some anger/betrayal sprinkled on as well.

Flow83 wrote:
This can be the lover / romancer of all women to the ultra badass, hardcore alpha male as grossly exaggerated characters. It can hook guys like an addict who lack, worship, even secretly abhor that trait.
It can and it does. I was obsessed with the IDEA of Zan. I didn't know him in person, so every thought of him was through his videos. And looking back, much of it looked like a play (acting) in front of the camera. People just want something to believe in.

I met with Tyler Durden of RSD years ago and upon meeting him all my "cool" thoughts about him vanished instantly, as I through him and his facade; just looked like a scared boy inside that accomplished a minor task that other boys are too scared to accomplish and gained him confidence/respect.

Flow83 wrote:
On the other side, guys will project very stereotypical images onto guys like The Kidd or other forum members here despite never even seeing them, Kidd is this, Peregrinus is this, and you have a whole image and story about them
I had a similar view as Dali in regards to my mental picture of Kidd and others. I can see now that having that mental projection come up takes away from what is happening there and then. It's more habit, then out of fear IMO. The new habit will be to recognize and be aware of when I'm labeling and putting others in a box. I can feel that NOT putting others in a box, allows them to open up in your presence cause you're allowing them space too.

Flow83 wrote:
No guy is ALWAYS playing entirely in one energy, which would be boring as hell, and would eventually prove unsatisfying even if it did get you laid a few times exaggeratedly playing that part.
Soooo true flow! Jame Bond is human too; not really but you know what I mean. The movies have really done a number on people.

I remember a few years ago I was so caught up on being X or Y. If I wasn't being X entirely 24/7 I was failing! That brought a lot of misery into my life, and the times I got laid, I was too busy making sure I was still X, rather than enjoying it.

Flow83 wrote:
I am talking about when you take an aspect of that nature and project all your stuff onto it, turning them into an archetype of that aspect (usually w/ a hero or villain quality) and stop making them a person in the real world.
I'm guessing that this is done by those who are ASLEEP. Unaware of their habits and motives. Those who have no control over themselves. Would you agree flow?

Flow83 wrote:
Oh, you just need the next course-- oh you just don't really get it yet, if you really had it down like the way the advanced guys do, she would have slept with you right there on the dancefloor. There are a lot of guys who prey on this.
Amazing reading this, and even more amazing reading it, having gone through it, and having put it too rest.

Flow83 wrote:
The inverse of the same coin is when it's -- I must destroy this quality because it's bad. IE i'm too much of a nice guy and I can't be "beta" so i must undo everything like that. If I say anything other than teasing a girl she automatically thinks I'm a loser.
This I'm seeing come up for me. I believe I'm too nice of a person to fuck a bunch of ladies, but it is me who keeps that belief alive! It's the roadblock I've created for myself. :geek:

Flow83 wrote:
They just GET what is *actually* going down, which may be completely divorced from the words being said or actions taken. This is not in the mind, and that drives the mind crazy, because it wants to understand it.


If they can see it and also know how to lead it where they want, it will look like jedi magic to an outsider who is only seeing what logically seemed to be happening.
Interesting!

Flow83 wrote:
Try it and you'll quickly see you can't stop it. It happens WAY before conscious thought.
You can't stop it, for now, but bringing awareness to it gives you choice to take it further or drop it right then and there. Wouldn't you agree flow?

Flow83 wrote:
The amount of stuff we project onto women in particular is almost unbelievable. The more of it you see, and the more of it that drops away, it will be impossible to fathom how much of a 'big deal' the topic was. You'll see things more as they are and stop trying to get things from them that they cannot possibly give you.

As long as you ascribe attributes to them like your sense of value, acceptance, love/approval, accomplishment, being a man, being good enough, being badass enough (ie "look everyone, look how much I don't care about women!") then it will be impossible to reach a level of peace and indifference. You will be a slave to some degree and telling yourself you aren't will just be posturing.
Saving the best for last flow? :)

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 Post subject: Re: Father's day
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:46 pm 
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Thanks guys.

TheDude one thing-- "asleep" and "controlling yourself" have a curious relationship. A significant component of ego structure is a constant need/belief in controlling everything that you literally have no control over.

The projecting of characteristics and putting people into a box, as you put it well, is based entirely on wanting to control, which comes from fear. Oh- he is this. If he is 'x' guy, then I know what he is and can understand/judge/act according to that, instead of seeing the actual person and situation. It's also literally the mind's job to take abstract things and put them into a label/category to be able to function, it's perfectly natural and not bad, just needs to be distinguished.

Hypothetically if you let go of the desire to control entirely, you would see things as they are 1000x clearer.

The belief that if I don't control myself I will go crazy/do stupid things is one of the deepest grab-you-by-the-balls beliefs in all humanity. Whether in spiritual teaching or psychology you will always see it.

Leaves most in a constant state of wanting to burst out but needing to hold it back. This suppression makes you feel like you are being productive because we are pent up and, almost all of us have examples of doing stupid things when our emotions get out of control.

The out of control is actually *because* of suppression and it hangs out too close to boiling point. This is subtle to the point you don't notice it anymore because we all had to restrain a ton of what is natural in us in order to be acceptable in our house, not get thrown out of school since grade 1, etc.

If you grab your balls and walk right into any emotion that comes up it begins to pass through like water. You don't pretend it doesn't exist- you may see/feel it's effects for a brief second but you're fully present and it does not bounce you off. All the 'stuff' is going on in the environment but it begins to look like matrix code and slow-motion.

Since we are trained to the opposite, it DOES take self control and awareness to observe this and remain the one in charge, not letting the emotion take you out of the pilot seat.

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 Post subject: Re: Father's day
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:57 pm 
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Flow83 wrote:
TheDude one thing-- "asleep" and "controlling yourself" have a curious relationship. A significant component of ego structure is a constant need/belief in controlling everything that you literally have no control over.
I agree the ego NEEDS to believe it is in control.

I should've clarified. What I meant by "controlling yourself" is not control your emotions, but control (choose) how you deal with what you feel...resistance or ALLOWING. ;) :)

I read something before about orgasm's that sounded completely true. People LOVE orgasms, because for a few short seconds the person dissolves (feeling of no control).

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 Post subject: Re: Father's day
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:52 pm 
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TheDude wrote:
Flow83 wrote:
TheDude one thing-- "asleep" and "controlling yourself" have a curious relationship. A significant component of ego structure is a constant need/belief in controlling everything that you literally have no control over.
I agree the ego NEEDS to believe it is in control.

I should've clarified. What I meant by "controlling yourself" is not control your emotions, but control (choose) how you deal with what you feel...resistance or ALLOWING. ;) :)

I read something before about orgasm's that sounded completely true. People LOVE orgasms, because for a few short seconds the person dissolves (feeling of no control).

Yeah. It would actually not last for a few short seconds if you did not pull out of that state so quickly, and truly dissolved into it. The same fear is actually activated though it doesn't usually seem like it (it can be explored however). The 'person' is back within seconds.

Check out this conversation a therapist has with Osho, saying how in his practice fear of orgasmic release seems to be one of the three primal fears that eventually gets uncovered with his clients:

http://www.osho.com/meditation/furtheri ... m?FaqNr=66

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 Post subject: Re: Father's day
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:33 am 
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Very interesting and profound article!
Quote:
A real transformation has never happened without meditation, and these are beautiful situations as far as meditation is concerned.
Couldn't agree more! Beautiful!

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 Post subject: Re: Father's day
PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:29 am 
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peregrinus wrote:
The Kidd!! wrote:
Royal Baby is a xxx. 8-)
Bleh, you spoilsport... here was me hoping for a big debate to ensue.
I want to continue the debate.

My father's mother, had 5 or 6 daughters, then only 1 son (yes, for the slow people if there are some, my father :mrgreen: )

She always told, "the first ones, my husband wanted children more than me, so I had daughters, that's why I had a son at the end, because I wanted one more than my husband at the time".

In the same vein, I remember the opposite, a family of 7 sons, and the last one was a girl, because the mother 'gave up' to try to have a daughter (SHE wanted a daughter, and only had sons), whereas her husband probably just kept pokin', hence the last daughter.

That will go with moose's comment
Quote:
Supplicating father = boy? :idea:
As if father wants baby more than mother -> daughter
If mother wants baby more than father -> son.


Now, In light of 'my generation' :
Male cousin, wants more than five kids : has two daughters already.
Older brother, wants five kids : has one daughter (his woman always pushed him for mariage, and he pushes her for kids, and as of today they don't plan on marrying, just saying)
Female cousin (30ish), wanted kids for ten years : First one, a daughter, second one a son.

She's two monthes pregnant again, don't know the sex of the baby (Grinus and Kidd, I take guesses).

-----

Other theory listenend on radio (Olivier de Kersauson 25 years ago, based more on pregnancy than just guess) :

If the woman has a good pregnancy, it's a daughter, if it's a bad pregnancy, it's a boy (as the mother would somewhat try to reject the baby or just not accepting it as well as if it was a girl)

ALL my generation's pregnancies confirm it, all went REALLY well, no excessive puking, ... two of them home delivered in a bathtub (male cousin's girl).
But, I don't know about my cousin's boy ... I know a female friend who actually had a very bad pregnancy (puking every day, couldn't move sometimes, ...) and she had a baby-boy.

There is also :
If you see the pregnant woman, if it's more on the side than front, it's a girl, and if it's more in the front (the growth of belly) it's a boy. (but you can't predict it acuratly anyways, and probably just folk tales)

----

Well I just wanted to put them three theories here.

As just the male can give a Y chromosome, it's 'men's fault' anyway.

So supplicating father, Kidd :evil: ? or just non-consentual ? :mrgreen:

I want to continue the debate, or at least see Grinus's always winning bet :ugeek:

PS : I won't bet the sex of Royal baby, but hope it's a man even though 'more likely to be a female' ... :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Father's day
PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:41 pm 
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GoldenBoy wrote:
PS : I won't bet the sex of Royal baby, but hope it's a man even though 'more likely to be a female' ... :roll:
It is a boy.

7 work colleagues lost quite a bit of money that day between them :)

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 Post subject: Re: Father's day
PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:48 pm 
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So you won this bet too ?

Side note : Finally a king ? :mrgreen: Really looking forward to this ...

What about the rest of the post ? What's your secret ? :ugeek: :ugeek: :ugeek: :ugeek: :ugeek: :ugeek: :ugeek: :ugeek:

Or at least, if you don't want to give it, what it a good trail to follow ? Science ? Common sense ? Logic ?

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 Post subject: Re: Father's day
PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:17 pm 
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GoldenBoy wrote:
Or at least, if you don't want to give it, what it a good trail to follow ? Science ? Common sense ? Logic ?
Socio Economic Analysis (of a sort)

All of the above.

You have pointers in your post, however are trying to make it far more complex than it is.

It is at once very complex and at the same time extremely simple and obvious.

(for reference, the number is now 11-1, yes I got one wrong)

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 Post subject: Re: Father's day
PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:31 pm 
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peregrinus wrote:
GoldenBoy wrote:
Or at least, if you don't want to give it, what it a good trail to follow ? Science ? Common sense ? Logic ?
Socio Economic Analysis (of a sort)

All of the above.

You have pointers in your post, however are trying to make it far more complex than it is.

It is at once very complex and at the same time extremely simple and obvious.

(for reference, the number is now 11-1, yes I got one wrong)
could you bet on my cousin's new one or do you miss some informations, for example ?

If I was to put it simply, it wouldn't be so much of men submitting, rather more perceived control from woman's pov then.

Meaning if she feels too confortable in the relationship (she controls it) it's a girl.

Am I warming up ? :-D

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 Post subject: Re: Father's day
PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:36 pm 
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Too few information.

Now you are just taking wild guesses ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Father's day
PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:36 am 
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peregrinus wrote:
Too few information.
What information you need ?

See her in person ? Their annual revenues ? A sample of conversation at home ?
peregrinus wrote:
Now you are just taking wild guesses ;)
Relating to wild guesses about the baby's sex of my cousin (too soon ?), or 'my' confort in relationship theory ?

If it's second one, I took your 'Socio Economic Analysis (of a sort)' and took it from woman's pov (as she carries the baby), hence perceived superiority of male or not (financial (of a sort) or more simply control of relationship), bad shot it seems...

---

This is actually a fun game to play as this subjects somehow fascinates me. (maybe just the ego of knowing I can predict things like this, or natural curiosity ...I prefer not to dig :oops: :lol: )

More questions then :

- You can guess what sex it will be from which month ? Do you have to see the mother ?

- Would you wager that if YOU want a girl, YOU can have one ?

Thanks :ugeek:

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 Post subject: Re: Father's day
PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:43 pm 
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GoldenBoy wrote:
- You can guess what sex it will be from which month ?
Nope, Nothing to do with months.
GoldenBoy wrote:
Do you have to see the mother ?
see this:
peregrinus wrote:
PS. Even guessed my new neighbors one, after only meeting him once and never meeting her..
GoldenBoy wrote:
- Would you wager that if YOU want a girl, YOU can have one ?
I would wager that I could engineer the situation to give a large likelyhood of a girl, if I wanted to. Same with a boy, if I wanted to.

Case in point, thinking back, my last couple of relationships, it would have been far more likely for us to have had a girl than a boy, in both cases.

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 Post subject: Re: Father's day
PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:54 pm 
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So why not 'supplicating father = boy' ?

As nature would do to compensate his lack of masculinity ? :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Father's day
PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:30 pm 
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GoldenBoy wrote:
So why not 'supplicating father = boy' ?
Previously:
GoldenBoy wrote:
Meaning if she feels too confortable in the relationship (she controls it) it's a girl.
Make up your mind...

You have now stated both options...

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 Post subject: Re: Father's day
PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:54 pm 
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'supplicating father = boy' as moose pointed would appeal to me more (and would seem to be more 'natural')

But I'm complicating it, because just if a man supplicates to his woman to have a baby (which seemed to be the case for my bro and male cousin, who 'had to convince' their woman (even though their girls probably prefer it that way, but they dissimulate it even more) ), that doesn't mean she controls the relationship, if she's more afraid of losing him by not procreating ...

So, I was confused with man supplicating for a baby, supplicating generally / control of relationship, degree of wanting of a baby ...

So, I would go with, if man lacks masculinity, this would be a boy to compensate, and vice versa, a baby girl for a real man.

That's my final attempt to put in in my words, as I concur with moose.

Five posts to say what he said in a phrase, :lol: :lol:

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