Natural Freedom

roark: Bravo!!

Really enjoyed reading your posts above.

Others: Really read those posts and digest.

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In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.

Looks like I've just lost most of my friends.. It began with one cutting contacts with me, I got a word he didn't like something
I said.. So I asked his good buddy that I go out with too regurarly, he started telling me how I always talk people down, treat them bad verbally and especially my friends and it's unbearable. Now I'm not aware of this at ALL, how am I supposed to control something like that.. I'm actually kinda sensitive and care about people generally, this seems just so weird to me
I've felt disconnect past weeks, especially when I moved on with inner stuffs, so it got to the point of cutting the ties.
Now my question. How do I work on something I have no idea I'm subcounsciously doing and have no idea about the reasons or how it manifests or anything ??
It seems I made a choice to move on with my life and it's manifesting in various ways..

I forgot to add - Roark those posts are excellent, I'm going myself for this, I'm extending my silence time and now probably my solitude time.. Thanks Merrick too

Roark!!

Awesome, man. Really made me smile, I dunno how you gave up music and art for that long though haha will have to get around to it

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"The heart is deep beyond all things, and it is the man. Even so, who can know him."

We usually think we are doing something a certain way until we see it or hear it. This is why athletes will record themselves, or musicians - the difference to what you actually did vs what you thought can be shocking and usually in a less than pleasant way. When you see it third person it is a thousand times easier to catch it or see it more accurately first person

It might seem a weird thing to do but maybe you should record some interactions on your phone? Audio obviously.

You got the next best thing which is honest feedback from someone else. Seems to me the last thing to do would be to stop interacting.

You are not very likely to be able to recreate all the triggers and patterns that make you come off like a dick when others are around by sitting alone and thinking about it or trying to work it unless you are experienced with it- that's my take at least.

I know there is the "screw them they are just -whatever-" approach but if it was coming from several ppl you know and have some respect for I would give it some credence.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTXz8xMaJi4

Sounds like the kind of stuff someone would do if they loathed their friends.

Maybe you're just treating your friends the same way you treat yourself (ie. with self-loathing).

Treat yourself with unconditional love/acceptance first, then it will be easy/natural for you to treat your friends the same way.

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"The society gives you a map; I give you only freedom. The society gives you character, I give you only consciousness. The society teaches you to live a conformist life ... I give you an invitation to go on an adventure." - Osho

Push-ups...it'll come to you when it's supposed to.

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EVERYTHING in life is conditional...EVERYTHING.

Pimposophy Revisited is now finally available on Amazon in all territories!

It can also be that what you say is true and they're not honest enough with themselves to see it, aknowledge it, accept it (YOU said you could read people easily, so I give you credit to say TRUTHFUL things, and TRUTH HURTS for most people ...)
I accept that I have a self-loathing and self-deprecating humor, doesn't mean I don't love my lazy ass fully

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"The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn."
Alvin Toffler

Dig it.

That is true, though it is a personal judgement call to go ahead and tell the 'painful truth' indiscriminately to everyone in your life, whether they ask you or not. Better to be a fully conscious decision, and one where you are ready to accept the consequences which there will certainly be. This sounded totally unconscious, not only not a decision, but not aware it was even happening (if this is in fact what was happening).. but point well taken on 'pushups' - no need to overanalyze, obviously digging in and more and more will be revealed as needed.

I'd explore what Meraki said too - treating others as yourself - in fact I'm going to explore that myself straight away

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTXz8xMaJi4

fufe: read the above posts carefully and repeatedly without judgement.

There are a lot of gems within them.

_________________
In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.

Question to you: What do you mean by testing it unconsciously?
I had similar experiences like you, but whenever i tried to replicate it I failed. When I was in that state, I noticed that my female friends who always treated me like a 'friend' started touching me etc. I lost my keys so one proposed taht I sleep at her place - i never even thought about having sex with her during that time, I just said yes (thought we will sleep on two different beds) it ended in us having really connected sex. Completely effortlessly, everything just fell into right place. I never considered her a sex partner for two reasons: she had guys that were much richer that I was, better looking etc, and she was a friend. I was completely disattached from the outcome. Two nights before, I met other girl, and she said to my other friend that she wants to fck me. Week after I was complimented by so many girls it felt akward. when I tried to verbalize what that state was I came up only with few words: empty and defenceless(in a manner that I didn't defend myself becouse nothing was threatning me - i simply didn't care enough for it to affect me).
Second time was not quite long ago when I had to move form other city, and completely start my life from the scrath again. I remember standing on the bus stop and plenty of girls jocking me etc. Then i realized that I was feeling like back then.

Maybe I am wrong so please correct me (especially you Peregrinus). Iguess letting go can be summed up to this: not putting a persona(in Jung terms) in front of you to achieve or to avoid something. Just being, going with the flow. Putting a persona on requires an effort, and it can be seen and felt by others. And you may call mumbo jumbo but to me it is not only about mindset and body language, it goes deeper than that. I don't know how to call it but it really seems that people and other living creatures are connected to each other, call it collective unconscious or whatever you like - had same experience with cats and parrots that roark said.

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Laying on the floor in a pool of blood and cum
My demons lay beside as I kiss them one by one
Then on that day I met a force that nothing will compare
I was born the son of evil when I fuck the devil there!

Bravo rekieter

I would suggest one change... though your words did describe it well.
thought wise for yourself: defenseless = open

Removing the mask or persona is a big one. Space is another, which is evident in your post.

There have been a lot of philosophers over the centuries talking about collective unconsciousness.

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In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.

fufe, I am really sorry to hear about your recent experiences. Like 'Grinus said, there is a lot of good advice in the posts here. There are some things I would like to add, but first it seems to me that i should issue a caution:

WARNING!!! - THERE ARE MANY AVENUES TO DEAL WITH THE ISSUES THAT SECRETLY LIE BEHIND THE FEEDBACK YOU GOT FROM THESE PEOPLE, AND THERE ARE PROBABLY MULTIPLE ISSUES THEMSELVES. Personally, I have found that the problem with this entire forum is that there is so much good advice, AND FROM SO MANY DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES, that trying them (the techniques, meditations, etc.) all at once could lead to a huge mess, followed by burnout. All this is to say, I am throwing my hat in the ring, but compare it to what the others have told you, decide which one looks most appropriate FOR YOU, and proceed from that. And bear in mind that after exploring one avenue, you can then explore another one at your leisure. I myself always keep forgetting that, although this path is supposed to be painful, it is not supposed to be discouraging to the point of actually giving up. Although it is supposed to be rigourous, it is NOT supposed to be RIGID. So, having said that:

What you are doing may be projection. Same goes for their reactions, but of course you can only change YOU, not them. Flow and I kinda bombarded (just kidding, Flow ) moose on this subject of projections in this thread: http://www.naturalfreedom.info/viewtopi ... 906#p27906. So check it out if you're curious. Also, if you want to explore further, anywhere on this forum where 'Grinus says "Mirror" - cause that's what projection is.

Also, but as a more long term practice (as opposed to dealing with a specific situation) Grinus' post on "Tapping your subconscious" (http://www.naturalfreedom.info/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=787). I started doing this a while back, and I am beginning to SUSPECT (am not entirely sure yet) that this is responsible for my being able to observe and monitor my behaviours in an unbiased fashion, IN THE MOMENT, WHILE I AM DOING IT. I am only doing this in a rudimentary way at the moment, not as advanced as Kidd!! or 'Grinus yet, but then again I have not been doing this meditation as regularily as I should either (I intend to do it once a day as a minimum once this XMas/New Year bullshit calms down).

Just throwing these out there. Also, best wishes for the continued experiments with silence and solitude. It will be tough, but it will be worth it. Remember to enjoy what floats to the surface when you do this; as painful as it is, it's ALL YOU, and it's ALL BEAUTIFUL. As an artist, you would appreciate this analogy: ever see an abandoned, dilapidated building, but you were able to see the beauty and charm inherent in it, not DESPITE of how run down it was, but BECAUSE OF IT? The seemingly ugly parts of you that come up will be the same. Treat them as such....

@ 'Grinus - as always, even though I pride myself on having my own mind, it's always heartwarming when you cheer me on like this. Thank you.

@ Morpheus - it was difficult as fuck! But it made me realise that I am far more interesting than the highest art imaginable (if you knew me & my tastes personally, you would be able to appreciate how truly revolutionary this realisation is). Imagine this - you and I (and everyone, including the lowliest human being) are all far more interesting and beautiful AT THE CORE than the most transcendent piece of art (we would be, since art can only be a reflection of the person "creating" it). Note: AT THE CORE..... it is what we show at the surface that sucks

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"I will not grow in the light, until I pass through the darkest caverns of my heart..."

"Temet Nosce"

Thanks for the posts, Roark. Really insightful. Yes, isn't it really sad that most people HATE THEMSELVES so much that they can't be in silence with themselves?

Meraki wrote: I really liked this video. Thanks! I also found this one on Being Alone really good: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZXGayXKx5s

Yeah I guess open is much better description. I used defenseless because I can only relate to myself and being insecure kid I was I used persona/mask as a way of defending myself. There is this Pantera song that few lines of lyrics just poped in my head while thinking about it:
"There is a part of me that's always sixteen
I've found the secret of eternal youth
Some get high on life or money, but there's an
Escape, drop out of the race.
- To walk through the world by ones self, you can't be
Protected... (..)
Don't fake your life - inhale it
And then you'll know yourself
The change in you is Goddamn Electric
Don't waste your time, embrace it
Annd then you'll know yourself
The change that is Goddamn Electric "

Funny to see Anselmo mentioned sixeteen - during the years that people come into puberty is the time that most of the masks are put on.

Regarding space - I might be wrong again but now it seems to me that by entering the state roark wrote and I guess i did, space comes naturally. Not forcing anything or anyone creates space. And it seems that this openess is what drags people to you, not space itself. I realize now how often my relationships failed only because I 'pushed' to hard either others or myself.

Peregrinus, could I ask You (if you have time ofcourse) to elaborate or express your opinion on collective unconscious and synchronicity (Jungian meaning of this term)?? I would really appreciate it.

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Laying on the floor in a pool of blood and cum
My demons lay beside as I kiss them one by one
Then on that day I met a force that nothing will compare
I was born the son of evil when I fuck the devil there!

Actually, I said testing it CONSCIOUSLY - this always seems to dissolve the effect TOTALLY, as you seem to also have realised: Moving on: First one only matters to her SOCIAL values, not her deeper, SEXUAL ones. Second one is a common misconception that this post should help to correct: http://www.naturalfreedom.info/viewtopi ... &view=next. The first post in this thread confirmed something I always suspected. Even if the original email is a hoax, it matches up PERFECTLY with what i've observed. One of my favourite posts on this forum. I once summed it up like this: Anyway, continuing onwards: I suspect that, at this point, you had no (or minimal) family & friends in your new location (hence start from scratch). When you care about the opinions of your social circle, on goes the mask, and hey presto!: persona - which gets in the way of any emotional connectedness (which for women equals no sexual 'spark', to use their dumbass terminology ). When you have no social circle, you DON'T GIVE A FUCK, and end up like 'Grinus' sig (although this can be impeded by nerviousness about being new in town, etc....) The effort in and of itself may not be the problem; it may simply be this: I am coming round to the belief that in our natural state, men & women are HARDWIRED to want to fuck one another, and the persona, coupled with our social (and therefore not natural) aims, simply gets in the way of that. Therefore, the irony is that, although one of the (many) aims of developing a persona is to "add on" something to us so we can get laid, it actually has the OPPOSITE EFFECT!! Not mumbo jumbo to me at all. This is one of the (many) problems with the PUA approach: they emulate the RESULTS (body language and all that crap) as opposed to finding and nurturing the CORE SELF (I don't know what else to call it offhand), and their techniques become just another persona..... EUREKA!!! (runs down the street naked ) I totally agree. So does Jung, actually: I propose (subject to correction or refinement after further observation and experience) that conscious minds are all separate from one another, but all SUBCONSCIOUS minds (especially the ones whose bodies are in the same vicinity as one another) are kind of 'coupled' together. Therefore, as society becomes more dependent upon the conscious mind to the exclusion of the subconscious (and bear in mind that this is exactly what happens when we attempt to suppress our instincts in order to avoid being like the "animals" we frown upon, although there are obviously other reasons that we do this) the more isolated we feel. As if this weren't bad enough, the repression of the subconscious also twists, distorts, and perverts the natural instincts. Therefore, although we feel like cringing in fear or shaking our heads in disgust at what we are seeing in the world around us today, it is actually perfectly understandable.

To add: some scary shit may be happening in the world today, for example with regards to how women are treating men, but we should probably try to keep in mind that, the more we get our inner life sorted (and come to terms with our subconscious, thereby learning to use it rather than the other way 'round), the less these events will apply (and happen) to us. And even if they do happen, WE WILL KNOW HOW TO DEAL WITH THEM. (I am saying this more for myself than anything, since I am still in a state of slight anger and disgust over what I have learned since I (and this forum) opened my eyes.)

Back to what I was saying:
Jung postulated that the two aspects of the psyche should cooperate, or if that proves impossible, to at least be allowed to fight on an "even playing field". Reason should be allowed to insist on it's rightness, since it is the only way we can successfully maintain a society and peacefully coexist, but instinct should be allowed to say what it wants to say, and be listened to rather than just being dismissed. Something to that effect, anyway. This is something I myself plan on learning to deal with. Not only does it negate the effect, but it's not fair to them, and even more importantly, it's not fair to me. Actually, thanks for bringing his up. While typing this, I just realised - I deserve this. IT'S TO BE EXPECTED. My only obligation is to not misuse it (which is impossible, if conscious intention dissolves the effect..... life is such a PIMP thanks again for that one, Dali)

Great post, rekieter.

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"I will not grow in the light, until I pass through the darkest caverns of my heart..."

"Temet Nosce"

Yes, I think it all comes down to it. Had this things happen to me so many times, but always assumed that other things have caused it. That's why I guess even my last relationship failed:) Exactly, first time I was devastated after my previous relationship failed and came to a mindset that whatever happens thats fine, I am too tired of this shit. Second time, yes i was alone but I was again tired of constant changes and not having any stabilization in my life so I just let it go. Dude, after my last post I started to think about this PUA shit and came to the same conclusions:) It is just like putting a layer over layer onto self, the only thing it gives is internal conflicts that cause problems later on.
I remember a book about possessions written by Felicitas D. Goodman. The book is a cultural anthropoligst approach to possession of Annelise Michel. apart from being a very interesting read it draws similar conclusions. Hunter/gatherer primitive cultures literally embraced their demons. There was no difference between 'magial world' and reality. Modern cultures by rejecting 'shadow' aspect of the psyche just enforces them and while primitive people could make a good use of it we struggle with them to disasterous effect. Btw she wrote a book on trance body positions - haven't read that yet. Regarding this subconscious connecton - I know we can explain human behaviour by body language etc - but it can't be done regarding the animals. Little example - my father hated my sisters dog, and literally everyone could see that she (dog) felt it. He didn't do anything just bad to her just didn't like her. You could easily see how dog reacted differently to him and to others

Btw the funny thing is that another word that came to my mind back when I was in that state was "primal" or "primitive" (another language issue;) But that was it!

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Laying on the floor in a pool of blood and cum
My demons lay beside as I kiss them one by one
Then on that day I met a force that nothing will compare
I was born the son of evil when I fuck the devil there!

Yep - Emphasis has been placed on using cats as a barometer for your attractiveness to females, and it's true - there are remarkable similarities between cats and the female disposition. However, I also find dogs useful as well. Not trying to insinuate anything about your dad, but years ago someone noticed how good I was with dogs, and they said something along the lines of "you must be a really good person; dogs are a good judge of character".

Maybe cats are a good barometer of how we are with females (can give them space to come & go freely, and cats seem to respond inversely to the amount of attention you give them), whereas dogs are a good test of how we are with guys (loyalty, and dogs seem to respond better when you treat them as equals although they are "supposed" to be a "lower life form" - i'm thinking of the times in my life when I have talked to a rough-looking, biker type of guy as an equal, and ended up spending a wonderful evening with them in stimulating conversation)?

Also, could there be a correlation between the type of pet a woman prefers and her character? I don't know, just throwing out an interesting hypothesis: what if a woman who prefers dogs has a more "masculine" type of character (more consistent, more likely to develop her intelligence), whereas one who prefers cats is more "feminine" in character (more "flighty", less consistent, more likely to rely on her emotions)?

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"I will not grow in the light, until I pass through the darkest caverns of my heart..."

"Temet Nosce"

By the way, this is a VERY good way of putting it (emphasis mine).
This is kind of starting to come to the surface in me. Even though I am very passionate, I was never really "primal" or animalistic, but these days I notice (only very occasionally) that sometimes when I feel disdain or contempt for some bullshit I see or hear, I can subtly feel a slight snarl beginning to form on the right side of my lips. Do I plan to suppress this? To quote Pokemon Trainer, HAIL NAW!

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"I will not grow in the light, until I pass through the darkest caverns of my heart..."

"Temet Nosce"

Cats are like women in a sense they look cute but they are STUPID

I don't know what happened but I feel a change coming (if it didn't come already..)..
Apart from the friends, the pressure from other people started "Find a girl, why don't you find a girl blahblah" and I feel little strange when I see symps with girls and myself alone Especially a girl I liked, she's with a guy sympying her ass so hard I've never seen anything like it - He got friendzoned but kept sympin and now they are together - I feel it can't last tho...

But today I walked around a town and I couldn't help but smile like an idiot without clear reason

I feel there's no space for relartionship in me really.. I mean, not the shackles, spending time with a girl eyes, but not seeing it as a comittment or whatever..
I feel like Ezio overwatching everybody from top of a building, standing alone (Hell yeah projections roark )

This is the thing I never understood and is opposite to what I know and experienced.

_________________
Laying on the floor in a pool of blood and cum
My demons lay beside as I kiss them one by one
Then on that day I met a force that nothing will compare
I was born the son of evil when I fuck the devil there!