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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:07 pm 
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I'll try to explain what's been going on as best I can and I sincerely hope some of you guys can help me out. Or maybe this is exactly what's supposed to be happening. But it's maddening. And I have difficulty making any sense of it.

What I thought was indifference is actually me being apathetic. Apathy as a reaction to me having a deep and gigantic fear and expectation of people not liking me. Being indifferent would mean not caring and being happy either way, whereas apathy is a constant wavelength type of emotional roller coaster with me switching between a dishonest "I don't give a fuck" and a lonely "Everybody hates me", bouncing off this strange rock bottom and repeating the cycle all over again. I feel disconnected and have, a majority of the time, these periods where I can't connect with people at all. I feel like I have no center, just this constantly shifting personality.

This is mainly when I'm around women. That's where this apathy comes out full force. And either I just stay quiet and keep to myself, even when I am genuinely curious about what is being said, or I feel so fake and not myself when I do talk. I place way too much importance on feeling positive vibes from people, and get frustrated when I stay quiet and don't have people engaging me. What I (think) it boils down to is that I have a feeling that I give of some sort of vibe that is off putting around women. I don't know what it is, but I've guessed that it's investment and fear.

Peregrinus responded to a statement of mine (I have a feeling that I should care about women and try to "hook up" with them) with "Why do you feel as if you should?". Well, the answer is that I see men around me visibly initiating, trying and changing their mannerisms when a women walks in, and that they (the women) are responding to it. And I feel completely lost.

I simply can't let go and be happy either way. I can't talk to women because of this conflict - me wanting them/thinking I should be the pursuer and yet me knowing that I shouldn't and that they should be the ones bringing something to the table. I think I reek of this vibe. Enjoying a simple day is rare because of all this bullshit surfacing from my mind and leading me down weird paths. I sometimes do feel like I'm going insane.

I know that I should be the one to figure this out and don't want this to sound like a "Write something and change me" post, but I fear I've gotten hopelessly lost.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:27 pm 
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Grinus wrote:
Stop doubting yourself

Your gut instinct is right, listen to it clearly and without noise.

It was developed over many thousands of years, many many generations of people who successfully survived their environment, attracted a woman and SUCCEEDED in mating and producing offspring.

Your ancestors WERE survivors.

Your GENES are those of survivors and people who prospered in their environment.

You do have it within you, to be happy, to achieve things, to survive and prosper.

Have faith in yourself.



Let all the other stuff go.
Let it go

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:33 pm 
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Bro. You are fine.

How about forgetting about women for some time. Hit the gym, read some (non-pua) books, play some video games, watch some movies, travel. Do you.

And if you do go out, go out to enjoy yourself and friends. Put this women thing on the back burner. See what happens.

"Screw chics dude. Tonight, I just gotta dance"


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:51 pm 
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...push-ups. :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:49 pm 
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Quote:
What I thought was indifference is actually me being apathetic. Apathy as a reaction to me having a deep and gigantic fear and expectation of people not liking me.

Don't you think you should at least congratulate yourself for having this realisation? Respect is due. Very few people self-observe.....
Quote:
And either I just stay quiet and keep to myself, even when I am genuinely curious about what is being said,
This is one of the wars i've been fighting too. I see examples of "pimp-tight" behaviour on this forum, "know" that this is how I should be, and sometimes act like it, WITH SOMETIMES DISASTEROUS RESULTS. After swallowing the red pill, I have realised that my next step is NOT to BECOME like the other guys on this forum, but find out how the discovery of the all-encompassing nature of the matrix relates to the man I was, the man I wanted to become before seeing the matrix, and the man I want to become now that I have seen it. I predict that I will NOT be like the Kidd!!, nor even like 'Grinus (even though his writing reminds me a lot of myself sometimes) - and I hope that I will not become who I WANT to be, but instead have faith that I will become THE MAN I TRULY AM ALREADY (think about this - if it still doesn't make sense, see Grinus' sig).

DON'T DESPAIR - you simply have internal decisions to make, and "inner-demon work" to do (instructions on this will be found all through this forum). I am going through this too, and can already see a faint light at the end of the tunnel.

.......followed by another tunnel, then another light, then another tunnel, etc....... :lol: :lol: :lol: We just deal with them as they turn up (and they do at the right time).
Quote:
I place way too much importance on feeling positive vibes from people, and get frustrated when I stay quiet and don't have people engaging me.
This happens to me too. A lot less, now that I know what it is. I could tell you what I have realised it is, but I would be cheating you. Everytime you feel this, look at the feeling and ask, why? What do I want? I find that I have to be hard on myself in order to find the answer, and then be gentle & forgiving with myself, once I do.
Quote:
I see men around me visibly initiating, trying and changing their mannerisms when a women walks in, and that they (the women) are responding to it. And I feel completely lost.
Why would you want to be like those guys? They will have to act like that for as long as they want to keep the chick. Can you imagine the effort? My shoulders ache just thinking about it......And if they get married to the woman and have to act like this THE REST OF THEIR LIVES? No thanks.......

The other guys are right to encourage us to forget about chicks for the time being, but maybe this will cheer you up: A lot of the guys here preach about NOT CHASING (it resonates with me, as a matter of fact, based on past experiences), and the latest is that recently I was told that a very impressive chick (looks AND brains) who I met at a party was asking about me after I left. The guy who told me is someone who I always grudgingly admired for years for the amount of chicks he has slept with. When he was describing her reaction to me, I could hear the amazement in his voice. As much pussy as he has gotten, I do not think he has EVER seen this reaction from a woman towards a man, not even him. The guys you are seeing DO NOT GET WOMEN. WOMEN GET THEM!!!!!!!!!
Quote:
Enjoying a simple day is rare because of all this bullshit surfacing from my mind and leading me down weird paths.
Two things:
Quote:
leading me down weird paths
Why not follow these paths? (do not get absorbed by them, just observe the thoughts - other sections of this forum, especially some posts by 'Grinus which I don't have the time to dig up now, go into this). See where they lead....
Quote:
Enjoying a simple day is rare
Unfortunately, you may have to get used to this. Let me explain....

I CANNOT GO OUT FOR ONE GODDAMNED PLEASANT AFTERNOON BY MYSELF WITHOUT SOME FUCKING CHICK JOCKING ME. IT IS NOW A PAIN IN THE ASS!!!!!
Quote:
I know that I should be the one to figure this out
You're right.
Quote:
I fear I've gotten hopelessly lost.
Correct, except for the hopeless part. Go inside your mind. You are the best company for yourself; not a girlfriend, not a "soulmate" (ugh!), not even your closest male friend, nor your parents - YOU ARE.

However, let me warn you - your inner demons will pop up after a while, and it may even be SCARY AS FUCK. What I am doing is remembering that I AM THE ONE WHO PUT THEM THERE (fear, shame, embarrassment, self loathing, hate, etc.) Personally, what I am doing is offering them the opportunity to come back up into the illuminated (conscious) parts of my mind, welcoming them back to a place at my dinner table so to speak, BECAUSE THAT IS WHERE THEY BELONG, AND DESERVE TO BE:

Come back home, fellas. We have work to do - TOGETHER (in other words, once integrated into the conscious parts of my mind, I figure these demons will give me far greater power; not just with women, but with my work, passions, etc.....)

To the other members of the forum, feel free to correct anything that you feel is mistaken. I am still a rookie.

Hope this helps, Moose. I have to go out now, and my internet has been sporadic lately, so I can't guarantee I can even reply to any questions you may have, but there are far more capable guys here who can help out....

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"Temet Nosce"


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:21 pm 
Moose, all power comes from within, and it is absolutely under your control. When you look within instead of without, you cannot fail to make use of the power that you have. Being happy is a choice and positive overcomes negative every time. It's a choice you have to make though because your the only one who has the power to change it and you have an unlimited supply of this power.

I agree with Stephen, forget about women and social stuff for a while and just focus on you. You'll realize that this is the only thing you could ever do. Bring your attention inward. You DO have complete control over your mind and emotions, you've just been corrupted and you think there is no choice but to suffer. But there is a choice. The only thing you can do is look within yourself. Forget about dating and start focusing on the things that make you feel good.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:33 am 
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Really nice post roark :geek:

To others: read that post multiple times, there are some gems in there to be seen.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:31 pm 
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Wow roark...words stump me, excellent post and it cleared up a lot of things. Can't even quote what specific points were gold, there were many of them. Thanks for writing that up, and I'll be coming back to one.

What I basically came to was the fact that since I put these demons there, getting frustrated at external things and trying to shape them to quiet the demons is redundant and an excercise in futility. I think I finally understand the "I stopped fighting my demons, we're on the same side" quote. As well as the "There is no spoon" line. It applies to the same thing. My complexes are there because I put them there, not because so and so did this or that to me. There was a catalyst, but I created the reaction, so to speak:

External thing (let's say a person I'd be shy to speak around) ---> Me censoring myself/changing my thought process to protect myself from things I brought up and will bring up in the first place


I'll be doing exactly what Stephen P recommended. I wanted to read World War Z and finish Game of Thrones anyway, there's a fuck-ton of studying to do, and I finally have a pass to the university gym. You were completely right (Stephen), I was getting way too caught up in this stuff.

And Kidd, I think you were making the same point that Stephen was, but I'll skip the push-ups and start working on getting that dead-lift up to 3x my bodyweight at last :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:55 pm 
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Thank you Moose and 'Grinus for the kind words.

Moose, I kind of hinted at it before, but i'll say it again for clarity - I am in the same boat. I have been going through some of these things too, just in my own way. Just wanted to point that out; although we shouldn't be in the business of ego-soothing around here, it's sometimes reassuring to know we aren't the only ones going through whatever we're going through.

Cool - enough bro-hugging, etc. from me.......just one more thing:
Quote:
not because so and so did this or that to me.
Quote:
but I created the reaction,
Pat yourself on the back again (not for too long, though)....... this represents something I consider SO IMPORTANT to my own development:

PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

Fucking beautiful. I'm outta here...... :D

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 5:06 pm 
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Notice how Kidd!! said basically what I said with 2 words and a coupla dots?

Jesus Christ grumble mumble mumble mumble......

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"Temet Nosce"


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:11 pm 
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As you change into something else, you will go through not knowing who you are anymore. That's because you're not what you thought you were and that is going to shock the system to it's core.

A caterpillar gets destroyed before it turns into butterfly. Anyone who told you change is completely effortless and fun is probably selling you a subliminal recording.

When you stop seeing the discomfort as a problem, the suffering ends. No disrespect to it, but a huge percentage of your whole story behind it and analysis of it also drops away.

It's a bit like freaking out after doing push ups because your arms hurt the next day, and thinking the world is ending because push-ups are supposed to make you stronger. They do. After your arms hurt. You get used to this process and the 'burn' becomes a good thing.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:04 pm 
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roark wrote:
Notice how Kidd!! said basically what I said with 2 words and a coupla dots?

Jesus Christ grumble mumble mumble mumble......
;)

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EVERYTHING in life is conditional...EVERYTHING. :ugeek:

Pimposophy Revisited is now finally available on Amazon in all territories!


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:02 pm 
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roark wrote:
I see examples of "pimp-tight" behaviour on this forum, "know" that this is how I should be, and sometimes act like it, WITH SOMETIMES DISASTEROUS RESULTS.
This. Pimp-tightedness is a mindset, not a behaviour set. If you start limiting yourself by putting rules on what you should do, you destroy the mindset. You need no rules on how to behave, only your ego needs rules.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 5:09 am 
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Flow83 wrote:
As you change into something else, you will go through not knowing who you are anymore. That's because you're not what you thought you were and that is going to shock the system to it's core.

A caterpillar gets destroyed before it turns into butterfly. Anyone who told you change is completely effortless and fun is probably selling you a subliminal recording.

When you stop seeing the discomfort as a problem, the suffering ends. No disrespect to it, but a huge percentage of your whole story behind it and analysis of it also drops away.

It's a bit like freaking out after doing push ups because your arms hurt the next day, and thinking the world is ending because push-ups are supposed to make you stronger. They do. After your arms hurt. You get used to this process and the 'burn' becomes a good thing.
Flow, thank you for this. This is inspiring (as are many of your posts), and helps with my focus.
Nyph wrote:
Pimp-tightedness is a mindset, not a behaviour set. If you start limiting yourself by putting rules on what you should do, you destroy the mindset. You need no rules on how to behave, only your ego needs rules.
So true.

One more thing; it may be a small matter, but as I am going for authenticity:
Quote:
Thank you Moose and 'Grinus for the kind words.
I noticed how automatic and robotic this statement was :oops: . What I was really feeling is this:

Thank you, 'Grinus. Coming from you, this means A LOT. And Moose, it was heartwarming to find out how helpful this post was to you. Also, putting those words down helped crystallise some of these ideas for me, so it did me some good as well. In other words, we helped one another.

Who says only women can be vulnerable??

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"Temet Nosce"


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 5:22 am 
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Moose you are who you are. most people can't understand the idea that within themselves they carry both dark and light. you should be very glad that you are able to see when people are adjusting themselves to notify the other, at least you should be able to catch yourself if you start doing the same thing. and try to stay out of your head! if you think too much you are gonna miss out on what you should do in the moment (gut), your mind does lie to you at times, especially when the ego wants to be satisfied.


.......................................
roark!
nice 8-)

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 5:28 am 
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Prodigy wrote:
roark!
nice 8-)
Thanks. So was yours, actually.

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"I will not grow in the light, until I pass through the darkest caverns of my heart..."

"Temet Nosce"


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:12 am 
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Thanks man.
Quote:
Being indifferent would mean not caring and being happy either way
This is just another concept for you to beat yourself up with- not only am i not talking to women, but now i'm also not indifferent about it. You're also the one who decided that's what indifference means. What you are describing as bouncing between the two emotional states is an illusion, it's the same state that you are just wrapping different words and thoughts around, which color it slightly.

What if indifferent meant that you feel discomfort as you grow, stretch yourself internally / externally, but you keep going anyway (indifferent to the pain) because you know they are steps toward what your goal is (which I hope you know what it is.) Of course, it could mean other things too.

Also, you DO care, so it's a shitty and futile exercise to tell yourself you're not supposed to. Much more productive to explore *why* you care and get to what is worth caring about. Jimmy Hendrix "cared" about his music. You should give a shit about your life. This is probably more about your innate natural desire to express yourself- and what is shutting that down, than it really is about women.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:11 am 
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Wow. Moose - I've been mulling over the apathy vs. indifference thing for a few days now as it has been nagging at me, and I decided today to start a thread on it since I'm in for the night (feeling under the weather). But I log on and here it is. My turn to agree and tell you that I've been going through a lot of the same stuff recently... :D

Here's some of my thoughts:
moose35 wrote:
Apathy as a reaction to me having a deep and gigantic fear and expectation of people not liking me.
My hang up is similar, but I would describe it as this terrible feeling that people are going to judge me negatively for not already being better than I am at something. I find myself giving up before I even start because I think that other people will think I should be better at something than I am. This plagues me in almost all areas of my life (like Flow83 said - this is not really just about women...), but just today its bubbled up to the surface enough for me to really put words to it. Knowing what it is has given me some relief, but I still have a lot more work to do around it.

Does this fear and expectation of people not liking you hinder you in other areas too (work, hobbies, family relationships, etc)? What would you do differently if you didn't have this fear?
moose35 wrote:
I have a feeling that I should care about women and try to "hook up" with them... I see men around me visibly initiating, trying and changing their mannerisms when a women walks in, and that they (the women) are responding to it. And I feel completely lost.
I battle this as well brother. For me I don't have a desire anymore to try to do anything (ie. change my behaviors in order to get the attention/validation of women), but I struggle with this feeling that I should feel something when I notice an attractive woman jocking me. I've already fully realized that I don't want to be like those symp guys (as roark described):
roark wrote:
Why would you want to be like those guys? They will have to act like that for as long as they want to keep the chick. Can you imagine the effort? My shoulders ache just thinking about it......And if they get married to the woman and have to act like this THE REST OF THEIR LIVES? No thanks.......
But I still have this feeling that I notice a girl jocking me - I should at least feel something. Like I should feel excitement, or horniness, or curiosity, or power, but I don't.

Right now I feel like a woman jocking me is a trigger for a negative spiral in my own head.

It starts out with: "Hmm... there's a cute girl there obviously jocking me." Then moves to, "Well, I'm supposed to be developing indifference and incorporating this pimp-tight mentality so I know that I shouldn't do anything about this like chase or subtly give the girl power in any way, plus there's a good chance she's a manipulative bitch that I wouldn't want to hang out with anyway." Then it transitions to, "Ok, so I'm totally in agreement with what I shouldn't do, but now I don't know how I should react to it. I'm supposed to be indifferent and chill, but right now what I'm doing doesn't feel indifferent - it feels more like I'm not confident and don't know what to do, and I'm sure I'm projecting that out and other people can pick up on it." And then it moves to "well, I'm all fucked up in my head now, and if I did try to talk to that girl, then I definitely wouldn't be indifferent, and I would come across as nervous/weird, so I should just give up, not look at the girl again, and try to just forget about it." Of course I can't forget about it immediately, and I beat myself up about it for a bit before I notice the next girl jocking me.

Enough times around the spiral in the last month have made me not only not excited when I notice a girl jocking me, but I think that is what has made me lose any sexual desire or motivation to meet/interact with new girls...

I'm caught in between not being indifferent, and feeling like I should be indifferent, which leads to apathy. I'm still afraid of how other people will judge me (not the girl - I know she likes me, but other people watching). I only was able to verbalize a lot of these feelings today. Flow described it nicely:
Flow83 wrote:
This is just another concept for you to beat yourself up with- not only am i not talking to women, but now i'm also not indifferent about it.
Anyway, long story short - I still have not accepted my demons. The pop up, and they effect me.

What I'm doing now is going though GP Walsh's "Just Allow It" course from the Balls Project. A number of other guys here have recommended it. I just started myself, so I don't have too much to say about it yet, but from what I've checked out so far it seems to be all about helping to make peace with yourself and allow things to be as they are. Some wisdom from Grinus on this:
It might sound clichéd, the key in my view is to 'empty your mind'.

By this, I am not meaning no thoughts at all. Thoughts will happen.
I mean not hanging onto them, letting them come and pass.

Do not resist them and do not hang onto them.
and
Some of the most profound were on my own, creating space for myself. Not hounding myself with thoughts, observations and other things. Simply put, existing - being in a place and being present with it without needing to think about it, label it or describe it to myself.

Thoughts will come to you, as you describe above - the key in my view is not to try and 'grab' and 'hold onto them' - let them flow in and out of you. Like water flowing over you. When I try and hold them or think about them it destroys the effect, if I watch them like an observer without interacting with them it leads in some quite unusual directions and not usually ones that you could anticipate.
These seem to be pretty good descriptions of "allowing" to me. I also think these might be some of the posts that roark mentioned but didn't have the time to find the links for.

------------
Roark - props man. I particularly liked this insight: "What I am doing is remembering that I AM THE ONE WHO PUT THEM THERE." Very powerful for me... Thanks for that.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:53 pm 
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Meraki wrote:
Roark - props man. I particularly liked this insight: "What I am doing is remembering that I AM THE ONE WHO PUT THEM THERE." Very powerful for me... Thanks for that.
My pleasure. Always.

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"Temet Nosce"


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:39 pm 
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Flow83 wrote:


What if indifferent meant that you feel discomfort as you grow, stretch yourself internally / externally, but you keep going anyway (indifferent to the pain) because you know they are steps toward what your goal is (which I hope you know what it is.) Of course, it could mean other things too.
I like this definition of indifference. Indifference is an emotion (technically a lack thereof), therefore it is conditional. We are all still developing until the day we die and we will experience success and failure on many different occasions and in many different forms.

If we interpret indifference as stated in the quote above, then we can realize that the ideal mindset to have is accepting outcomes for what they are.

We all have flaws and we all fail in life. We should all be able to find happiness in the fact that we do not dwell on the mistakes/failures, but instead we are actively trying to improve ourselves so that we can make less mistakes (we will never be perfect).


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