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 Post subject: Re: Meditation
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:59 am 
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Good progress!!

They can sniff out if you're making an effort just for them so they don't care, and when you do become who you want to be, they won't care how much work went into it.

Either way they don't care, so why should you care about them?.

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"Simply put, you being in her life is a BLESSING. Her wronging you in any way is her own self-inflicted CURSE, and if she does wrong you, then let the punishment fit the crime. Her life will absolutely SUCK without you."


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 Post subject: Re: Meditation
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:55 pm 
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TheDude wrote:
I completely KILLED the life of it with how my attitude was toward it; forceful action. I see now why I failed so many times with my goals and projects. :geek:
Nice. It's such a paradox to realise that in order to do what we want, we have to stop pushing. All this time we were told to use force, effort, hard work! Batter the door down!

This was a really important post for me to read, thanks Dude :D

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All is more simple than you make it.


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 Post subject: Re: Meditation
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:45 pm 
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Rolan: Let it go!

So much in those three little words.

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In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.


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 Post subject: Re: Meditation
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:05 pm 
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I know, I've been trying. But trying is the thing that prevents! This world is too damn funny sometimes :lol:

Thanks for the PM reply by the way, been thinking about that over the last two days. Anyhow..

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All is more simple than you make it.


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 Post subject: Re: Meditation
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:42 pm 
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Alchemist wrote:
Good progress!!

They can sniff out if you're making an effort just for them so they don't care, and when you do become who you want to be, they won't care how much work went into it.

Either way they don't care, so why should you care about them?.
Going back to...everyone is looking out for themselves firstly; selfishness. "What can I get? Whats in it for me?"


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 Post subject: Re: Meditation
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:32 pm 
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TheDude wrote:
I completely KILLED the life of it with how my attitude was toward it; forceful action. I see now why I failed so many times with my goals and projects. :geek:
That's exactly what I realised today.

_________________
Laying on the floor in a pool of blood and cum
My demons lay beside as I kiss them one by one
Then on that day I met a force that nothing will compare
I was born the son of evil when I fuck the devil there!


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 Post subject: Re: Meditation
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:10 pm 
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Rolan wrote:
TheDude wrote:
I completely KILLED the life of it with how my attitude was toward it; forceful action. I see now why I failed so many times with my goals and projects. :geek:
Nice. It's such a paradox to realise that in order to do what we want, we have to stop pushing. All this time we were told to use force, effort, hard work! Batter the door down!
Nope.

Your goals won´t manifest if you have
incongruencies in picking your CONTEXT.

Context determines our GOALS.
(or if we have a disempowering context, we
don´t even set goals for ourselves.)

You must be bigger than REALITY and your goals.
If you put your goals on a pedestal, then you
demonstrate that you are smaller. In reality, you
must dominate over your goals. Make it yield to YOU.

_________________
♫♫♩♫‿◦


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 Post subject: Re: Meditation
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:36 pm 
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Jared wrote:
Rolan wrote:
TheDude wrote:
I completely KILLED the life of it with how my attitude was toward it; forceful action. I see now why I failed so many times with my goals and projects. :geek:
Nice. It's such a paradox to realise that in order to do what we want, we have to stop pushing. All this time we were told to use force, effort, hard work! Batter the door down!
Nope.

Your goals won´t manifest if you have
incongruencies in picking your CONTEXT.

Context determines our GOALS.
(or if we have a disempowering context, we
don´t even set goals for ourselves.)

You must be bigger than REALITY and your goals.
If you put your goals on a pedestal, then you
demonstrate that you are smaller. In reality, you
must dominate over your goals. Make it yield to YOU.
This happened to me. You're 200% right:) If your goals are bigger than you, when you fail or something happens that makes you unable to fulfil them you're done. That's one of the most important things when building a proper 'fundament'

_________________
Laying on the floor in a pool of blood and cum
My demons lay beside as I kiss them one by one
Then on that day I met a force that nothing will compare
I was born the son of evil when I fuck the devil there!


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 Post subject: Re: Meditation
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:27 am 
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TheDude wrote:
Had another good session today.

I quickly caught onto what I was trying to do in the beginning of this session: Trying to have a great session like yesterday.

That intention of mine quickly made it unable to let go, because I was setting up an expectation for myself. I let go of that, and it things eased up quickly.

While not trying to be aware of anything you are aware of everything. Or at least its surprising what you become aware of. And if you become aware of nothing, its surprising what nothing is actually comprised of. That's my experience.


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 Post subject: Re: Meditation
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:39 pm 
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On the subject of meditation, it is fine if you struggle with keeping your mind clear, in fact that is probably better for you. Just like when doing mental push ups or real push ups, how can you see any benefit if you are not challenged? One of my main goals right now is to do breath meditation every morning, saying inhale, exhale in my mind as I breath. Counting or saying things like that are just a crutch to help me till I no longer need them. Until I get better at controlling my mind. Sometimes I have to rely on crutches the whole session, sometimes I can drop everything from the start. In any case it is the journey not the destination, if that makes sense.

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“The impediment to action advances action. What stands in the way becomes the way.” — Marcus Aurelius


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 Post subject: Re: Meditation
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 7:23 pm 
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Caster wrote:
Until I get better at controlling my mind.
Have you ever been able to control the mind?

Why do you want to control the mind? Why do you feel that it needs to be controlled?

Who/what is the "I" that is trying to control the mind?

_________________
"The society gives you a map; I give you only freedom. The society gives you character, I give you only consciousness. The society teaches you to live a conformist life ... I give you an invitation to go on an adventure." - Osho


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 Post subject: Re: Meditation
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:39 pm 
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Meraki wrote:
Caster wrote:
Until I get better at controlling my mind.
Have you ever been able to control the mind?

Why do you want to control the mind? Why do you feel that it needs to be controlled?

Who/what is the "I" that is trying to control the mind?
Yes, of course everyone is capable of choosing to think about certain things, to not think or just letting the mind wander.

I try not to want or feel the need to try to control the mind, it is something I have weighed and decided is the best course of action. I believe the present moment is the only thing I will ever own then it is important to be present mentally. Also if desire is the root of all suffering then getting a handle on my desires requires it. That is a budhist thought and one of the metaphors he used for controlling the mind was it is like training a wild elephant. Additionally in western thought Socrates said the unexamined life isn't worth living and he wanted people to be more concerned with what they are than what they own. Self reflection requires you to steer your mind there, that is to say, not sleep walking through life on autopilot. Stoic thought also places a high importance on being present, letting go of the things you can not control and seeing things as they are. These are concepts that resonate with me as well as the benefits documented scientifically for discipline being the greatest determination of "success" and happiness. The mind is a powerful thing, a tool that can be tamed and used or that can run wild. I prefer the former.

The I is me, my body and mind are simply things I have been granted some control over.

My questions to you are if we are always advocating to let go on this forum, what is the thing that is letting go? In a physical sense if you were to try and let go of something with your hand how would you do this if you did not have control over it? The good news is control comes with practice, first you might wiggle a finger, then a thumb, but eventually you will be able to release the grip at will when you notice the grasping and then finally you find yourself grasping very rarely or not at all.

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“The impediment to action advances action. What stands in the way becomes the way.” — Marcus Aurelius


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 Post subject: Re: Meditation
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:48 pm 
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caster wrote:
. Also if desire is the root of all suffering then getting a handle on my desires requires it.
No no no no no. Buddha said that Attachment to desire causes suffering, not desire itself !!!
Supression of desires won't help you


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 Post subject: Re: Meditation
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 10:13 pm 
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Caster wrote:
Yes, of course everyone is capable of choosing to think about certain things, to not think or just letting the mind wander.
Is this really true? Can you force your mind to have certain thoughts or not have others? Can you stop your mind from thinking something? Try it.

Can you force yourself to think about something (lets call that something "X")? Or do thoughts about X just start coming up on their own, of their own volition, and then more thoughts arise that claim that "you did it, you started thinking about that." But how did the first thought of X get started? Did "you" do it?
Caster wrote:
The I is me
Ok, what is "me" then? I was looking for something a bit more in-depth. Can you describe this "I" or this "me"? What is it? Where does it live? Describe it, explain it.
Caster wrote:
My questions to you are if we are always advocating to let go on this forum, what is the thing that is letting go?
The answer to this question is exactly what I'm getting at when I ask you "what is 'me' then?"
Caster wrote:
In a physical sense if you were to try and let go of something with your hand how would you do this if you did not have control over it? The good news is control comes with practice, first you might wiggle a finger, then a thumb, but eventually you will be able to release the grip at will when you notice the grasping and then finally you find yourself grasping very rarely or not at all.
The finger wiggles, and then a thought arises that says, "I did that, I wiggled the finger."

This is a bit paradoxical. You don't let go by trying to tighten "your" control of "yourself," and then when you have more control over "yourself" you then attempt to use that control to force yourself to let go of something. Instead, when you let things happen as they will happen, you will automatically let go. One of the ways you "get good" at letting go is by letting go of your desire to become good at letting go. Like I said, a bit paradoxical. I love paradoxes though, so its all good.

--------

BTW - In my role as an amateur weather forecaster, I'd say there's a 75% chance of sun with an epic post by Flow coming up here...

_________________
"The society gives you a map; I give you only freedom. The society gives you character, I give you only consciousness. The society teaches you to live a conformist life ... I give you an invitation to go on an adventure." - Osho


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 Post subject: Re: Meditation
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 10:24 pm 
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fufe wrote:
caster wrote:
. Also if desire is the root of all suffering then getting a handle on my desires requires it.
No no no no no. Buddha said that Attachment to desire causes suffering, not desire itself !!!
Supression of desires won't help you
You are correct. My apologies.

_________________
“The impediment to action advances action. What stands in the way becomes the way.” — Marcus Aurelius


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 Post subject: Re: Meditation
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 11:05 pm 
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Meraki wrote:
Is this really true? Can you force your mind to have certain thoughts or not have others? Can you stop your mind from thinking something? Try it.

Can you force yourself to think about something (lets call that something "X")? Or do thoughts about X just start coming up on their own, of their own volition, and then more thoughts arise that claim that "you did it, you started thinking about that." But how did the first thought of X get started? Did "you" do it?

Ok, what is "me" then? I was looking for something a bit more in-depth. Can you describe this "I" or this "me"? What is it? Where does it live? Describe it, explain it.

The answer to this question is exactly what I'm getting at when I ask you "what is 'me' then?"

The finger wiggles, and then a thought arises that says, "I did that, I wiggled the finger."

This is a bit paradoxical. You don't let go by trying to tighten "your" control of "yourself," and then when you have more control over "yourself" you then attempt to use that control to force yourself to let go of something. Instead, when you let things happen as they will happen, you will automatically let go. One of the ways you "get good" at letting go is by letting go of your desire to become good at letting go. Like I said, a bit paradoxical. I love paradoxes though, so its all good.

--------

BTW - In my role as an amateur weather forecaster, I'd say there's a 75% chance of sun with an epic post by Flow coming up here...
To answer your first question yes of course. You can choose what to focus on. As far as stopping your mind from thinking thoughts goes, that probably isn't possible. What is possible, in my opinion, is to see these thoughts and how you will react to them. That is the point of meditation to me, to practice control over this process.

Have you ever been trying to study and started day dreaming? The origin of the day dream probably isn't that important. What is important, I think, is to realize that you are day dreaming in the first place.

I can't be more in depth. I am. Sounds kinda honky and spiritual but meh that's all it is.

It sounds paradoxical but you can make your muscles relax. For a greater paradox a good way to do this is flex it as hard as you can then let the contraction go. It is not that paradoxical though, if you can make it squeeze you can also make it stop. I understand what you are getting at though you see letting go being the opposite of trying to control. I see letting go as a form of control. I agree that it is important to let go of the desire of having control over letting go but think the more you do it the better you will get at it. That is what my hand analogy is getting at, that it isn't something you do once and are forever cured, or that you should stop observing.

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“The impediment to action advances action. What stands in the way becomes the way.” — Marcus Aurelius


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 Post subject: Re: Meditation
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:03 pm 
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Caster wrote:
To answer your first question yes of course. You can choose what to focus on.
Can you really? The idea that we have this agency and choice is a very powerful, very convincing one - I got caught up on this for a while.

Really contemplate and inquire about this. Lets say you want to think about popcorn - how does that happen? Do you really consciously decide, "I am now going to think about popcorn," and then you do. Or does a thought about popcorn just spring into your head, on its own, and then another thought follows that says, "ohhh, popcorn, yeah I'm going to keep thinking about that!"

If this second scenario is true, are you actually deciding to think about popcorn? Or are you already thinking about it, and then once you have already been thinking about it, you have another thought that retroactively says, "I chose to have these thoughts about popcorn." What came first, the thought about popcorn randomly springing into your head, or the "choice" to have thoughts about popcorn?
Caster wrote:
I can't be more in depth. I am. Sounds kinda honky and spiritual but meh that's all it is.
You actually can be more in depth. If something exists, you should be able to describe it based on your direct experience of it. If it doesn't exist, then not being able to describe it is perfectly reasonable. If you are convinced that "I am", then what is this "I" that is?

This question might be uncomfortable - thats fine, don't fight the discomfort.
Caster wrote:
I see letting go as a form of control.
You might want to re-evaluate this belief...

_________________
"The society gives you a map; I give you only freedom. The society gives you character, I give you only consciousness. The society teaches you to live a conformist life ... I give you an invitation to go on an adventure." - Osho


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 Post subject: Re: Meditation
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:49 pm 
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You could "Let go" all you want until you get blue and still you will end up solving just half of the equation !


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 Post subject: Re: Meditation
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 3:29 am 
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First thank you for having this conversation with me it is helping me examine my ideas more in depth and solidify some of my beliefs. I apologize that I can be more rambly than poetic, and sometimes what I say isn't exactly what I mean.
Meraki wrote:
Can you really? The idea that we have this agency and choice is a very powerful, very convincing one - I got caught up on this for a while.

Really contemplate and inquire about this. Lets say you want to think about popcorn - how does that happen? Do you really consciously decide, "I am now going to think about popcorn," and then you do. Or does a thought about popcorn just spring into your head, on its own, and then another thought follows that says, "ohhh, popcorn, yeah I'm going to keep thinking about that!"

If this second scenario is true, are you actually deciding to think about popcorn? Or are you already thinking about it, and then once you have already been thinking about it, you have another thought that retroactively says, "I chose to have these thoughts about popcorn." What came first, the thought about popcorn randomly springing into your head, or the "choice" to have thoughts about popcorn?
This popcorn example is a good one and similar to day dream analogy I made. When I read the line the image of a bag of popcorn popped into my mind. However I did not sit the entire afternoon dwelling upon popcorn. I noticed that the point was not particularly about popcorn and let the image go. We all have a thoughts and you have some ability to either be with these thoughts, let them go and perhaps choose instead to focus more on the present moment. The first step is of course observation, realizing we are attached or thinking about something at all. This isn't to say this capacity is infinite, or can't be improved or there are thoughts and ideas so engulfing we can not be indifferent towards them. The ideal of enlightenment or a sage is just that, an ideal.

I believe you, I and everyone innately have the ability to prioritize your thoughts and actions to achieve certain outcomes. Like if you were hungry you are probably able to feed yourself some way, or have some idea how you would go about doing it. If this ability did not exist our society, our civilization would simply not exist. This is what makes human beings so unique and probably the reason we have such a developed mind. It isn't necessarily free will, or absolute control over your thoughts as free won't, which is well proven and documented. Human beings have a well developed ability to stop themselves from acting on impulses in the present to reap rewards in the future. For instance if you were apart of a primitive society you might decide not to have sex with the chieftain's wife because it would get you murdered. In the present you might decide to put your money in a bank for the future instead of spending it the instant you got it. You might decide that investing into education or training will reap you long term benefits or that having sex without a condom even though it feels better might lead to long term consequences. And so you do not have to be a victim to your thoughts of popcorn, you might decide that thinking about it is not as productive to you as doing something else is.

I guess we can boil this down ad infinitum where we are asking where did the idea of prioritization come form, the impulse to do it, how do we decide what is important etc. etc. etc. Perhaps we are all just products of our environments, and genetics, and the flow of our lives is predestined. That we are permanent victims to this process and whatever thought happens to arise. Or perhaps by observing these processes, really looking deep down inside to see what is really there and why, we can feel the flow, and if not steer it entirely, move within it somewhat according to our on volition. Again, I think it all starts with observation, to relax you have to feel the tension, to let go you have to be aware of the attachment.
Meraki wrote:
You actually can be more in depth. If something exists, you should be able to describe it based on your direct experience of it. If it doesn't exist, then not being able to describe it is perfectly reasonable. If you are convinced that "I am", then what is this "I" that is?

This question might be uncomfortable - thats fine, don't fight the discomfort.
First, answering this question does make me feel somewhat uncomfortable because I do not have a well defined answer. I have not sat around and ruminated on the thought much. I guess I will start with your two statements about describing things that exist and do not exist. I do not believe that if I am unaware of something it does not exist, to me this is illogical. I think there are plenty of things out there that exists right now even though I am completely unaware of them. In fact I believe things exist that no conscious being is aware of and there might even exist things that no conscious being will ever be aware of. Secondly is very possible to perfectly describe things that do not exist, perhaps not "perfectly" but close enough anyway, like is done in fiction, or movies. A good movie on the concept is The Matrix where everyone is living in a reality that isn't even real, however very well described.

To answer the "I am" question right now I lean heavily towards a non-dual existence. Oddly enough I did not completely arrive to this idea through Buddhist or other religious teachings on the subject (thought they did influence it) but through something I read when I was in eighth grade in a book I do not remember, and something a creationist use to say on the TV and through my understanding of thermodynamic diagramming. Anyway what this creationist used to say, and what the book said was, either we were the product of god or the universe itself evolved and was conscious, that we are the consciousness of the universe walking and talking and fucking etc. That always resonated with me. The thermodynamic aspect of it is when you go to solve a problem on, lets say, how much gas an engine consumes you first create a boundary. You say I am only going to consider what is inside this box then draw the box (most of the time not actually, just mentally). So your box might exclude whatever the engine is powering, or ambient temperatures and pressures, or whatever else ignoring makes the problem easy to solve. The fact of the matter is we walk around everyday drawing the same boxes, people draw one around their person as if it separates you from the rest of the world, as if what they do affects nothing and what happens outside of this box does not affect them. Truthfully this box doesn't really exist, you are directly connected to everything around you chemically, thermodynamically, electrically and all the other forms of mass and energy transfer (my thought is more in the traditional scientific sense of energy rather than the mental or spiritual type of notions which have not been proven as of yet, etc.) So to sum up the very difficult question of what I mean when I say I am. If I am conscious and a part of the universe than it must be said the universe is conscious. Through me, through you, through everything that can think and act. Even the parts that can not think or act are part of this entity, truly only separably arbitrarily (For instance you can build a wall of atoms to separate different kinds of atoms but from the outside its still a bunch of atoms and still a part of all that is.) So when I say that I am, I am trying to say that all that exist exists and is aware of its own existence. Anyway this is just how I lean currently. The "I am" question is a very deep one and at the moment I am trying to be more practical. That is a question which might have an answer I will ever be able to know and knowing might be of no benefit.
Meraki wrote:
You might want to re-evaluate this belief...
Meraki wrote:
You don't let go by trying to tighten "your" control of "yourself," and then when you have more control over "yourself" you then attempt to use that control to force yourself to let go of something.
And you might want to re-evaluate how you view control. Marcus Aurelius did not write "Meditations" and force hardships upon himself for fun and monks in Burma do not spend hours a day meditating on bare subsistence because they have nothing better to do. It isn't about absolute force, the key word is control. When I did karate we used "control" when we sparred, the meaning was very different from hitting the other guy as hard as you could. It meant hitting him with just enough force that he felt and knew you could deliver more, so that he knew his block or technique needed work. Sparring against a novice was always most dangerous because they lacked any control. And so it was that even though I could punch and kick vastly harder then a beginner, I could also be much more gentle, to the point they wouldn't even realize they were touched. Control is about mastery, and while you may never truly master yourself (a destination you should not desire to reach because you may never arrive), the path is what is important, at least that is what I believe.

Indifference to me is letting go or not trying to control those things that are not up to me. This does not mean letting go of those things which are within in my power or seeking to know the difference between the two. It is just like that old prayer really.

_________________
“The impediment to action advances action. What stands in the way becomes the way.” — Marcus Aurelius


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 Post subject: Re: Meditation
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 8:09 am 
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Haha, I will take Meraki's bait -- I'll try to be as 'epic' as possible here, as a farewell for a while. With 2014 beginning, I need to zero in my focus on some things which will mean no posting here for some time.-- If anyone wants to get in touch you know how to do so.
--

There's intention and there's the arising of thought. They are not inherently synonymous. If anyone truly believed there was no such thing as intention, they would never even bother telling someone to inquire, to ponder a question, explore it, take it for checking and so on.

To say "take a look and see if you have any choice" has a Koan quality in and of itself. You will certainly appear to be making the choice to do the inquiry or not, check it or not. This is of course because it is all on the level of an individual self/mind - that's the world you operate in. It's like a guy in a dream telling you that you might be dreaming. He's very much a real guy, and you're choosing to listen to him, and doing so may prove very expanding. It only after waking up that you realize that both guys and the decision itself was inside the dream.

To try to get a really articulate, mind-satisfying answer that hits all the points of these deeper inquiry questions can become just an exercise of mind. It can be good to consider the paradigm that you are using the mind to take it to the limits of where it can go, not solve a puzzle to make the mind feel satisfied. Destabilization and discomfort are usually good signs here. Crossing the threshold, the direct experience of the non dual nature of existence does not contain a self who believes in nonduality nor has any theories about it. The easiest check is whether there is experiencing and feeling more or thinking about the experience and making stories about it more. In the latter, there is a 'me' referencing the experience and analyzing vs just pure direct experiencING.

Much of this comes down to the implicit ownership of thoughts, thinking, emotions. Check the assumptions and the language. The thoughts are MY thoughts, *I* am thinking or my mind is clear (where is your mind when there are no thoughts?). Can you actually find the ownership in them if you don't assume it is there? They are obviously there - but is it really you, or is it an intricate functioning that you are observing and experiencing. An aspect of you, but not the fundamental source, which it cannot be if you can observe it. A functioning so sophisticated that it has self referential thoughts and concepts, that you've conditioned to immediately identify as yourself. Meditation and inquiry of this can lead to seeing the microsecond gap here.

Thoughts, sensations, experiences, these are all obviously arising. You are aware of them. The difference is the automatic assumption that they are YOU. See if you can expand your viewpoint to be much bigger than the body and thoughts, something that contains all of them. Notice how immediately each thought or aha moment wants to get claimed again and taken back into a smaller, more limited viewpoint, even if it uses very sophisticated and spiritual language.

Yet at the same time everything is being expressed through this body, 'mind' and so on.

When you play a guitar, you don't think the guitar is you, but it is the instrument the expression goes through. The guitar is not "music", but without a guitar there is nothing for it to be expressed through. "Music" is unlimited potential (consciousness) but you can't listen to it until it is expressed through a specific instrument (body/personality and so on). This means it has to be limited in order to take form.

This instrument is just so sophisticated and subtle that you think you are the guitar. It is actually just one aspect of the equation. You can begin to see through this, this is part of the bigger aspect of "letting go." Thinking you are the ego is what you have adapated to, and to truly drop that can be experienced as a form of death or Nirvana, which translates to extinction. Of course YOU still remain after the fact. Countless metaphors for this, one of the most lasting being crucifixion and resurrection

Then you can tune the instrument, clean it, make it as functional as possible, without identifying with it. It's not "me" anymore and you don't think you are completely broken when the instrument isn't getting laid or making tons of money right now. You can enjoy expressing through it without thinking it is you. Thus attachment to desire vs desire. No conflict. The true non duality, which is that both the infinite, limitless potential ("music") and the expression of it through a specific form are intrinsically connected. They are not the same, nor are they different - they are not two and they are not one. You can't say they don't exist, because if it didn't exist you couldn't be talking about it. You can say "I" and be referring to the form or realize the "I" that is both unlimited infinite potential that can never be touched AND the form, with the freedom to move between. Constantly take a step backwards and see if you can get a glimpse of this, that you've always been infinite awareness and also the guy here reading this, that you are both and beyond both. That tuning the instrument and dissolving into emptiness are not at odds with each other until you go into mental masturbation about it. It is something to be known and experienced directly, not an idea to believe in.

Happy New Year all and I'll catch up with you later.

_________________
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTXz8xMaJi4


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