Natural Freedom

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:22 pm 
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Fully agree with what grinus is saying. In a society that is pushing people towards identifying with their "victim group", statistical under-representation can be used (and is used) as a way to point towards discrimination and prejudice, despite the fact that the world is, by and large, a meritocracy.

I work for one of the richest companies in the world that's been around for an extremely long time, so it would seem to me that they're able to achieve this level of success by finding and nurturing talented people who bring value. But at a recent meeting with the CEO, he was talking about how his top priority is to have 50% women in management positions. One guy called him out and said that reeks of not promoting based on merit but on gender, which is discrimination, and he wasn't able to say anything and just repeated that it shouldn't be as low a percentage of women as it is now.

It's nonsense, and I'm so so glad that the world is starting to realize this (look at the popularity of people that speak about this, this is becoming mainstream and the radicalization of this leftist/marxist/feminist position is pushing more people to explore what's really going on.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:12 am 
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I'm also grateful for the push back, hopefully it's enough.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:13 pm 
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Let me avoid the question

It is a common practice in today's music business
that producers write the songs, and secretly record
instrument tracks in behalf of musicians that can't play
well enough. Once the musicians leave the studio,
the engineer and the producer re-record some of the
instruments in, without telling the band LoL.

The next day the band comes in and listen to the mix
and think:

" Damn we sound good! " haha

The Four Chords That Killed POP Music!

4min 20sec

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuGt-ZG39cU

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:43 pm 
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Ah, yes, the four magic chords. I IV V vi.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... rogression
:lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:01 pm 
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Aragorn wrote:
I'm so so glad that the world is starting to realize this
It seems some women are starting to realize this as well. There is hope :lol:

Here in the Netherlands where I live, 70% of the female employees work part-time. More than in any other European country. Also the Gender Pay Gap in the Netherlands is bigger than in any other European country. What a surprise! I wonder whether there is a correlation... :roll:

In a (female hosted) talk show two women warned young women, that they shouldn't start working part-time when they are still young. Because when you start working part-time early on in your career it is more difficult to be successful in your career. As a consequence (young) women become less independent. They actually try to encourage young women to start working full time. Which in my eyes is a much better way, than having a rule of 50% women in your company.
https://evajinek.kro-ncrv.nl/fragmenten ... ge-vrouwen
Quote:
Young women often opt for a part-time job and as a result become less economically independent in the longer term. This is shown by a study by the social cultural planning office commissioned by the Ministry of Education.
However now some women are angry because they called women who work part-time 'less independent', because it should be women's own choice whether they want to work full time or part time... :roll:


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:21 pm 
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Peregrinus wrote:
Jared wrote:
women/girls seem to choose instruments that are mainly used in classical music: piano, violin, clarinet, acoustic guitar w/nylon strings (classical, pop)
Men/boys choose drums, electric guitar, bass, saxophone. (pop, metal, rock, jazz)
Girls rarely choose drums
Why?

ignore the individual, look at them as a group, females and males

It is not about the instrument, even though it appears to be.. there is no spoon
Maybe because there is already more music available for 'classical' instruments? In the form of sheet music that has been written in the past centuries.

Fore more modern instruments like drums, electric guitar, bass, saxophone, there is less pre-written music available. So one would have to be more innovative and pro-active in playing such an instrument?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:02 pm 
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Gonzo wrote: *
Maybe because there is already more music available for 'classical' instruments? In the form of sheet music that has been written in the past centuries.

Fore more modern instruments like drums, electric guitar, bass, saxophone, there is less pre-written music available. So one would have to be more innovative and pro-active in playing such an instrument?
Follow that thought.

Also follow the thought of the relevance of the instrument in the position in the group/band/orchestra etc. You will find echoes there as well of the same thoughts.

The instrument in my mind, is like a runny nose... its a symptom of a cold, not the cold itself. I could go on about fingers and moons here as well ;)

You can also follow this in singers, are they front or backing, what style do they prefer and what does that infer. Do they lead a group or guest in others groups? Taking the voice as another instrument, as it used to be.

The rabbit hole goes quite deep :)

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:19 pm 
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I think I see what you mean.

Women choose instruments/roles where it is easier to blend in and stay in the background. More submissive roles maybe...
Men choose instruments that stand out a bit more and choose leadership roles in a musical setting more often.

From a musical point of view this is a very, very broad generalization though. A violin or a piano can very well be a leadinstrument, just like an electric guitar, bass guitar or drumkit can be an accompanying instrument...


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:25 pm 
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I am curious about your opinion, Peregrinus: Do you think this is biologically hardwired in males and females? Or is it programming from society? Or a mix of both maybe?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:48 pm 
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Gonzo wrote: *
I am curious about your opinion, Peregrinus: Do you think this is biologically hardwired in males and females? Or is it programming from society? Or a mix of both maybe?
Personally I would say hardwired, as other things are, varying degrees in different individuals, as is 'strongness' of gender traits.
Then augmented and shaped by society. Sometimes unsuccessfully.

Similar behavior has been reported in many studies on various animals as well as human groups.
For example the ones taking juveniles and grouping them and presenting them with toys or other things to interact with, there are strong gender biases which have been observed both in close and distant relatives.

-

For example, drums are commonly used to hold a beat for the rest of the band/group to keep to. As Jared pointed out girls rarely pick drums.
I could argue no one in an orchestra can be a lead instrument as that is the conductor who also leads, the lead instrument is really second.
In other bands/groups, is it the singer, the guitarist or the drums who is really leading the song?
Or is it the producer putting the song together who is directing?

Then I could add a discussion about how the instrument itself has an importance in how it allows or rather controls the player, how much freedom of expression is there, or how by wrote is it, depending on its position and expected function within the group?

The choice of instrument is very telling, as there is a lot behind that choice.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:12 pm 
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Peregrinus wrote:
Personally I would say hardwired, as other things are, varying degrees in different individuals, as is 'strongness' of gender traits.
Then augmented and shaped by society.
OK, thanks for your answer. I think it is biologically hardwired too, shaped by society off course, also dependent on the society and environment in which you grow up. There seems to be quite a great variation in individuals as well. I know both dominant women, and submissive, caring men. Having said that, these dominant women can become caring quite easily when the situation calls for it.
Peregrinus wrote:
For example, drums are commonly used to hold a beat for the rest of the band/group to keep to. As Jared pointed out girls rarely pick drums.
Very good point! Being a drummer is quite a responsible position in a band.
Peregrinus wrote:
I could argue no one in an orchestra can be a lead instrument as that is the conductor who also leads
I don't see a lot of female conductors. They seem to be up and coming however.
Peregrinus wrote:
The choice of instrument is very telling, as there is a lot behind that choice.
I am going to think about this some more! Interestingly enough I have just started learning to play the violin! I have already been playing the guitar for years :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:26 pm 
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Tomomi Nishimoto - Brahms : Hungarian Dance No. 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJ47Tc4jDi0

Some very good ones coming up, i've seen a few over the past years...

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:38 pm 
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It get's even more interesting with this article/research:

Stereotypes Lead Boys to Prefer Drums to Violins
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=98013&page=1
Quote:
Girl Roles Not As Rigid
The researchers, who studied more than 600 kindergarten and fourth-grade Australian children over the past couple of years, found that it's far easier for a little girl to break away from the stereotypes and pick a masculine instrument than it is for a little boy to pick up that violin.

"The worst thing that's likely to happen [to a girl who wants to play the tuba] is she will be called a tomboy," Repacholi says. And having masculine traits might be considered an asset even by children because they probably notice that males, more often than not, rule the roost.

"But for boys," Repacholi says, "there's nothing positive associated with displaying feminine qualities."

In other words, it might not sting as much for a girl to be called a tomboy as it does for a boy to be called a sissy. So girls, the study suggests, make the break more easily than boys, at least in the short term.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:46 pm 
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Given you already play one musical instrument, a guitar and said you were taking up the violin now, what is your take on this and your choices, looking back on it?

[Sidenote: you have just cited a study that shows that the females had more choice than the males]

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:19 pm 
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Aragorn wrote: *

one of the richest companies in the world that's been around for an extremely long time,
Quote:
his top priority is to have 50% women in management positions.
Quote:
I work for


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:51 am 
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rant wrote: *
Aragorn wrote: *

one of the richest companies in the world that's been around for an extremely long time,
Quote:
his top priority is to have 50% women in management positions.
Quote:
I work for
Yes?

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:33 pm 
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Peregrinus wrote:
Given you already play one musical instrument, a guitar and said you were taking up the violin now, what is your take on this and your choices, looking back on it?
My choice to take up the violin now was purely a practical one. I had written a guitar piece, and then I thought it needed something more... Strings! I could put in "fake" violins, but why not lear to play the instrument myself :) It's a lot of fun learning a new instrument.

I picked up the guitar when I was 16 because I really wanted to be in a band. Also guitar stands out a little bit more than drums or bass guitar. Back then I really wanted to do something to make me stand out from a crowd. In retrospect maybe it had to do with getting noticed by girls as well. Hormones :D


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:12 pm 
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Gonzo wrote: *


I picked up the guitar when I was 16
4 ( first live performance at age 8 )

How playing an instrument benefits your brain

4min44

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0JKCYZ8hng

(!) In today's film music, there aren't any stringed instruments that can produce
the exact same effect used in film scoring. They mix in synths and keyboards.
Especially doubling ( tripling, x4, x5 ...) the cello w/ synths is common.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:29 pm 
peregrinus wrote: *
Tomomi Nishimoto - Brahms : Hungarian Dance No. 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJ47Tc4jDi0

Some very good ones coming up, i've seen a few over the past years...
My first impression was that he looks very much like a girl.. than i looked up who this conducter is.. Its a. She :D

Maybe youll enjoy this too:

https://youtu.be/liTSRH4fix4


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:59 pm 
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Jared wrote: *
(!) In today's film music, there aren't any stringed instruments that can produce
the exact same effect used in film scoring. They mix in synths and keyboards.
Especially doubling ( tripling, x4, x5 ...) the cello w/ synths is common.
One reason amongst many that people seek out sometimes older and always music that does not suffer from this, it is something that is being removed from our musical landscape in my view.
One of many reasons I listen to classical and instrumental music frequently.

and following on:
Midas wrote: *
Maybe youll enjoy this too: https://youtu.be/liTSRH4fix4
Gentle, Brash, Soft, Hard, Fast, Slow, gloved and open...

Going back to Jared's post... synths and keyboards and sampling and looping just cannot capture that essence that is every single breath of each note being different.

Listening to the video Midas posted ( Chopin - Complete Nocturnes (Brigitte Engerer) ) a piano performance, within the first moments you notice that no two notes are the same, in weight, in attack, in sound or in feeling.

listen on and you can feel the performer interacting with the instrument, expressing themself through it, with it.

One would say no other instrument is needed.. yet some would argue that 1 instrument on its own is not enough and we need to pile more and more on until it becomes a morass of sound.

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