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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:23 pm 
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https://www.nu.nl/festivals/5091470/eur ... staat.html

The article is in Dutch, but here is a quick Google Translate version of the text:
Quote:
The organization of the Eurosonic Noorderslag festival in Groningen aims to make half of the line-up of female acts in the year 2022.

That's what programmer Joey Ruchtie tells NPO 3FM on Tuesday evening. "The content, the artistic, is at the top, but at the same time it is important to keep in mind that this discrepancy exists."

The decision was made within the framework of the Key Change Project, which aims to stimulate female musicians of all kinds of music. "The more women we see in music - from big stars like Adele to smaller, innovative experimental musicians - the better," says Vanessa Reed, initiator of the project.

In total, seven European festivals have announced that they want to have a line-up in 2022, half of which consists of female artists.

The 32nd edition of Eurosonic started on Wednesday. Here thousands of professionals from the music industry come together to attend keynotes, interview sessions, debates and networking events during the conference program. Eurosonic is the largest showcase festival in Europe and part of Eurosonic Noorderslag.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:26 pm 
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And here is a similar article:
http://www.harpersbazaar.com/uk/culture ... e-project/


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:51 pm 
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Personally I look forward to the sight of more female roadies at concerts :)

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:20 pm 
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:lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:41 pm 
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Ah excellent, aiming for equality of outcome instead of equality of opportunity.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:35 am 
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Indeed!

From the second article:
"The fundamental problem isn't that women don't want to be in bands or on stage - it's that we're [the industry; READ: MEN] not giving them the chance to get to that point,"

Somehow they make it the organizer's (or men's) fault that there are not enough women in bands or on stage...


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:27 pm 
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Gonzo wrote: *
Somehow they make it the organizer's (or men's) fault that there are not enough women in bands or on stage...
Forgive me if I am missing something really obvious: it cannot be their fault so it has to be someone elses, the organisers and men were just the closest targets.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:04 pm 
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Quote:
it cannot be their fault so it has to be someone elses
Why can it not be their fault?

Maybe I am getting a little paranoid... But it seems to me that there are a lot more men in bands anyway. Maybe I am wrong, but men just seem to be a little bit more pro-active in forming bands and getting on stage to perform their music. Yet no one is actively stopping women to do the same thing.

To me it seems very artificial to have a rule that there should be at least 50% women on stage. Shouldn't it be about the most talented people, who make the best music? Regardless of gender, race or nationality?

To me it seems women have themselves to blame for not being more pro-active...


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:09 pm 
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Step back a few steps Gonzo and look at the wider picture

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:12 am 
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Quote:
Step back a few steps Gonzo and look at the wider picture
I've been thinking about this... Seems that you want to make me seen something that I haven't noticed yet. Yet, I don't think I see what you mean...

Do you mean that (feminist) women would never blame themselves or their own gender?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:35 pm 
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Gonzo wrote: *
Quote:
Step back a few steps Gonzo and look at the wider picture
I've been thinking about this... Seems that you want to make me seen something that I haven't noticed yet. Yet, I don't think I see what you mean...
There are a number of things going on here, as per usual..

One is, this is not about a music festival, similar things are also going on in various workplaces across many lands and in society at a more general level.
Gonzo wrote: *
Maybe I am getting a little paranoid... But it seems to me that there are a lot more men in bands anyway. Maybe I am wrong, but men just seem to be a little bit more pro-active in forming bands and getting on stage to perform their music. Yet no one is actively stopping women to do the same thing.
It would seem that way.

If I can draw a parallel, STEM fields.
Gonzo wrote: *
To me it seems very artificial to have a rule that there should be at least 50% women on stage. Shouldn't it be about the most talented people, who make the best music? Regardless of gender, race or nationality?
Is this as artificial as saying that 50% of your employees have to be women?

or 30% or 40% or any arbitrary number...

I'll mention STEM again.
Gonzo wrote: *
Shouldn't it be about the most talented people, who make the best music? Regardless of gender, race or nationality?
You included the magic word 'should'...
One would think in a balanced fair and open world that it would be about talent, drive and other things, as you say regardless of age, race, gender, nationality, social status etc....

The question is: do we live in that world?

I will quote the translation given above:
Quote:
"The content, the artistic, is at the top, but at the same time it is important to keep in mind that this discrepancy exists."
Ignore everything before the 'but'


Gonzo wrote: *
Do you mean that women would never blame themselves or their own gender?

Why would they, when some other groups offer themselves as sacrificial lambs as soon as they can.


Just think, say for example they get their way and 50% of represented performers on stage are women... If that number is an artificially chosen and picked for one, and they are currently way below 50%, then one would think that they would have to exclude some acts in order to add more female acts.. exclude some male acts by definition.

So some acts who qualified for the lineup are going to be excluded to include some female group or act to 'make up the numbers'.

How does that sit?

Another option is that they are proposing that women are actively being selected against and excluded from the lineup currently...

Again, think of the parallels in workplaces currently and across the whole of social media.

A shower thought... what happens in a few years when the ratio is over 50% and there are say 70% female acts on stage, do you think they would remove some and add some male ones to take it back to their 50%?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:58 pm 
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I have very high standards in music.

Get Martha Argerich or Hilary Hahn.

I like all music... rap, heavy, jazz, classical, Windows closing theme... LoL

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:41 pm 
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Thanks for answering my posts in so much detail Peregrinus!
Peregrinus wrote:
There are a number of things going on here, as per usual..
One is, this is not about a music festival, similar things are also going on in various workplaces across many lands and in society at a more general level.
Yes, I know. It just seemed so much more obvious to me when it comes to music and music festivals. Music is a level playing field for both men an women. For example it doesn't require a lot of physical strength to play a musical instrument. There is no reason why women wouldn't be able to play a musical instrument or sing. In fact there are many talented female musicians. They just don't seem to form bands and get together to perform on stage as much as men do.
Peregrinus wrote:
Is this as artificial as saying that 50% of your employees have to be women?
or 30% or 40% or any arbitrary number...
Nope! It is the same thing.
Peregrinus wrote:
You included the magic word 'should'...
One would think in a balanced fair and open world that it would be about talent, drive and other things, as you say regardless of age, race, gender, nationality, social status etc....
The question is: do we live in that world?
No, we don't live in that world. Not really... A lot of things seems to be about money or power these days... Money and power, instead of passion, or ability or love for what you are doing.
Peregrinus wrote:
Ignore everything before the 'but'
:D I remember you mentioned this before! Ignore everything before the 'but'.
Peregrinus wrote:
Why would they, when some other groups offer themselves as sacrificial lambs as soon as they can.
Oh, my God! Men as sacrificial lambs... :o
Peregrinus wrote:
Just think, say for example they get their way and 50% of represented performers on stage are women... If that number is an artificially chosen and picked for one, and they are currently way below 50%, then one would think that they would have to exclude some acts in order to add more female acts.. exclude some male acts by definition.

So some acts who qualified for the lineup are going to be excluded to include some female group or act to 'make up the numbers'.
Yes, exactly! That is one of the reasons I posted these articles here.
Peregrinus wrote:
Another option is that they are proposing that women are actively being selected against and excluded from the lineup currently...
I find it very hard to believe that female acts are actively being selected against when it comes to music festivals. Which organizer would not want more women on stage? There is absolutely no reason why women would be kept out of the music business. That is why I noticed these articles. They were quite an eye-opener for me. When it comes to the workplace I kind off still doubted whether women really would have a harder time in some carriers than men, or not. In music there is no reason that I can think of why it would be harder for women.
Peregrinus wrote:
A shower thought... what happens in a few years when the ratio is over 50% and there are say 70% female acts on stage, do you think they would remove some and add some male ones to take it back to their 50%?
Probably not... Unless men finally start to protest. In fact I can't wait until the year 2022 :D I am kind of curious how this will work out. Because the pool of active female musicians will be smaller to choose from, one would think that the overall quality of the music would have to go down. But maybe not! Maybe these female musicians will surprise me, and maybe this will indeed be a positive change in the world of music. New musical ideas form the female perspective! It could potentially be good. I'm trying to stay positive here! ;)


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:02 pm 
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They’re called lazy ho’s
for a reason

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:26 pm 
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Gonzo wrote: *
Peregrinus wrote:
Another option is that they are proposing that women are actively being selected against and excluded from the lineup currently...
I find it very hard to believe that female acts are actively being selected against when it comes to music festivals. Which organizer would not want more women on stage? There is absolutely no reason why women would be kept out of the music business. That is why I noticed these articles. They were quite an eye-opener for me. When it comes to the workplace I kind off still doubted whether women really would have a harder time in some carriers than men, or not. In music there is no reason that I can think of why it would be harder for women.
This is not about music

I can think of a number of a good reasons, they have nothing to do specifically with music or festivals, they have more to do with group dynamics and reward mechanisms (in the groups/bands).

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:28 pm 
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peregrinus wrote: *
This is not about music

I can think of a number of a good reasons, they have nothing to do specifically with music or festivals, they have more to do with group dynamics and reward mechanisms (in the groups/bands).


What you're saying is that because of how their brains work(+ social conditioning or simply social reasons), they have less inclination/motivation to be on bands(note that i say bands not music) than men do?, meaning they don't have a system to run away from, or to rebel against, nobody to impress or call atention?.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:30 am 
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Hmm...

In the music school where I work (4h/week)
women/girls seem to choose instruments that are mainly used in
classical music:

piano, violin, clarinet, acoustic guitar w/nylon strings (classical, pop)

Men/boys choose drums, electric guitar, bass, saxophone. (pop, metal, rock, jazz)

+ teachers: 5 men 4 women

Girls rarely choose drums

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:41 am 
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Jared wrote:
women/girls seem to choose instruments that are mainly used in
classical music
Yeah, I noticed that too. For example when you look at the average symphony orchestra there seem to be plenty of women. Hmm... interesting.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:53 am 
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rant wrote:
What you're saying is that because of how their brains work(+ social conditioning or simply social reasons), they have less inclination/motivation to be on bands(note that i say bands not music) than men do?, meaning they don't have a system to run away from, or to rebel against, nobody to impress or call atention?.
I have been thinking that there may be biological reasons for it. That might explain why there is plenty of women playing musical instruments (for example in classical music; see post above), but that they don't feel the need to express themselves on stage as much as men do. Men may naturally be more hierarchical.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:55 am 
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Jared wrote: *
women/girls seem to choose instruments that are mainly used in classical music: piano, violin, clarinet, acoustic guitar w/nylon strings (classical, pop)
Men/boys choose drums, electric guitar, bass, saxophone. (pop, metal, rock, jazz)
Girls rarely choose drums
Why?

ignore the individual, look at them as a group, females and males

It is not about the instrument, even though it appears to be.. there is no spoon
Gonzo wrote: *
Jared wrote:
women/girls seem to choose instruments that are mainly used in
classical music
Yeah, I noticed that too. For example when you look at the average symphony orchestra there seem to be plenty of women. Hmm... interesting.
Same question

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