Natural Freedom

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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 11:00 pm 
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Rick pointed out this video to me, thanks Rick :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&v=r2QRsVKbSjw


There is great value we can get from some teachers but one should learn only from teachers who teach natural game and not too many- you can choose like 2-3 teachers, learn from them and then apply their stuff with your personality and lifestyle.

If I had to think all the time about my posture, my tone of voice, what I'm going to say, etc...
I would go crazy, lol

even if I get more lays who am I really behind all that stuff?
Am I just a robot who remembers all the stuff to say and do, always in my head thinking and analyzing? :shock:
It's too much hard work anyway.....

I remember when I did the 'Annapurna Circuit' trek in Nepal it was hard and took me 22-23 days.
But the scenery and the people I met along the way were amazing and at the end of the trek I was like: wow, it was hard but I did it, I made it by myself :)
it's much better then taking a helicopter just to see what is at the top......

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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 3:52 am 
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Shay - thanks for posting this. He's dead on about the weirdness of the PU gurus.

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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 5:28 pm 
while i understand the value of having a teacher - i think the idea of having a teacher, even a "natural" teacher has to be dropped at some point because that will keep you in your head and away from what you want (aka... success is not in my grasp yet because my teacher has it and I don't.. I have to try to be like my teacher). Having a teacher will forever keep you in 2nd place. What you want is here and now, just release the emotions in your way of what you want, because it is indeed natural.

I think teachers are most useful when they give the big picture. That's not what people want - People want step by step, but if you can release this need you can find your own way. Rion, David X, Zan, etc helped me a lot with the larger conceptual ideas but if I tried to act like them I wouldn't get anywhere at all.

And i agree that too much teachers is a bad idea because they each have their own model of the world and it can create a lot of conflict.


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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 10:30 pm 
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I like listening to guys like this. I've heard him talk before. I have an interview that he did with Zan that is great. He's totally right too. Cheat codes make a game boring. The fun is in the dicovery and the curiousity and who really gives a fuck if you "fail"? The universe doesn't even notice.

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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 10:31 pm 
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djl wrote:
while i understand the value of having a teacher - i think the idea of having a teacher, even a "natural" teacher has to be dropped at some point because that will keep you in your head and away from what you want (aka... success is not in my grasp yet because my teacher has it and I don't.. I have to try to be like my teacher). Having a teacher will forever keep you in 2nd place. What you want is here and now, just release the emotions in your way of what you want, because it is indeed natural.

I think teachers are most useful when they give the big picture. That's not what people want - People want step by step, but if you can release this need you can find your own way. Rion, David X, Zan, etc helped me a lot with the larger conceptual ideas but if I tried to act like them I wouldn't get anywhere at all.

And i agree that too much teachers is a bad idea because they each have their own model of the world and it can create a lot of conflict.
Yea dude but I did write:
"learn from them and then apply their stuff with your personality and lifestyle."

I never said: become them ;)

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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 11:38 am 
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Shay wrote:
There is great value we can get from some teachers but one should learn only from teachers who teach natural game and not too many- you can choose like 2-3 teachers, learn from them and then apply their stuff with your personality and lifestyle.
djl wrote:
And i agree that too much teachers is a bad idea because they each have their own model of the world and it can create a lot of conflict.
I would suggest a different approach, along the lines of redefining what you think of as a 'teacher'. The best teachers I had in my life did not 'teach' me, they brought out things that were already there - they lead in certain directions and gave me the space to explore those avenues, rather than sticking to dogma and strict guidelines. They challenged some of my thoughts and processes without driving me rigidly along certain other paths, they let me discover rather than forcing me to learn.

I personally refer to them as 'influences', I did end up learning from my time with them but it often was not the lesson as they were teaching, it was a variation of it more in tune with myself than with their personality and views. They were perfectly ok with this as they had detached some of the ego feeding that goes with classical teaching methods and results.

The aim when teaching in my view is not to indoctrinate someone else with your views and beliefs but to help them explore and solidify their own with some guidance and mentoring.

This is where I disagree with Shay's comment about 2-3 teachers, I tend to feel that it is far too few, if you consider them as 'influences' and not teachers. The problem is we tend to get too tied in to ideas and that limits the options regarding accepting influences from outside sources as some may not fit with the model we are trying to build in our heads and beliefs.
At this stage lots of different influences may 'open things up' by challenging some of the limiting beliefs we hold, sometimes this is necessary before being open to new ideas or concepts to remove the 'clutter' left by old beliefs and thoughts.

The problem of 'too many' only really becomes an issue if you start to 'own' their methods, take them as yours and as your beliefs, this is the core of the conflict mentioned. If you do not take ownership of their methods they are merely something floating around to be considered and incorporated into the solidifying thoughts and beliefs within you, changeable and flexible as they get molded by your other discoveries. At this time being solid and rigid will do you a disservice if you are seeking to learn and expand your thoughts and beliefs, being flexible is the key.

Then you can hone in on those which fit with your style and personality (as it develops and solidifies), knowing that you have looked at a cross section of the available influences and not ignored a lot of them along the way. You may be short changing yourself in the long run otherwise.
djl wrote:
while i understand the value of having a teacher - i think the idea of having a teacher, even a "natural" teacher has to be dropped at some point because that will keep you in your head and away from what you want (aka... success is not in my grasp yet because my teacher has it and I don't.. I have to try to be like my teacher). Having a teacher will forever keep you in 2nd place.
I agree with this, this is what lead to my influences thoughts, rather than teachers.

If you found an ego less teacher, true and pure, I am sure they would hope that their students would surpass them and go onto far greater things than they have. Is that not the real aim of teaching, to see how much further other people can go given the shortcut of your knowledge and experience, surely the aim is not to hold them back to your level forever?
djl wrote:
I think teachers are most useful when they give the big picture. That's not what people want - People want step by step, but if you can release this need you can find your own way. Rion, David X, Zan, etc helped me a lot with the larger conceptual ideas but if I tried to act like them I wouldn't get anywhere at all.
This is to a degree ego related I feel. You have to let go in order to see the big picture and see what they are trying to teach you, which is not the A,B,C of how to do things but in a sense the frame they put around the whole thing. The specifics do not really matter once you understand and internalize a certain frame or part of it. The specifics I see as examples to show you the path but they do not tell you how you should walk the path, just how that person chooses to walk the path given who they are and where they are.

They are using the example to show something else. This very much ties into the finger pointing to the moon quote "It is like a finger pointing away to the moon. Don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory."

In a sense, look at what they are saying and seek to see the moon they are pointing at, not get distracted by the finger which seems closer and more accessible. The finger is a distraction if you allow it to be.

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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 11:50 am 
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peregrinus wrote:
In a sense, look at what they are saying and seek to see the moon they are pointing at, not get distracted by the finger which seems closer and more accessible. The finger is a distraction if you allow it to be.
Great post and I loved this last part- it's an old zen saying. 8-)

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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 3:05 am 
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Interesting to note that the word 'educate', its original meaning from latin means 'to draw out'. So I think the great teachers are the ones that dont add anything, but ASSIST in triggering you to realise within. Veils of illusion start to drop.


Shay, I did the annapurna circuit too about a year ago. AMAZING!!! I love Nepal! Beautiful beautiful beautiful.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 10:57 pm 
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bump

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peregrinus wrote:
I would suggest a different approach, along the lines of redefining what you think of as a 'teacher'...I personally refer to them as 'influences'
Immediately upon reading this all of myself agreed with this! The influences I've had in my life didn't teach me...they gave their opinion(s) and questioned mine at times, then gave me the space to figure it out!

I agree with peregrinus when he states 2-3 teachers is too few. If you think of them as influences then there is no cap...as long as you stay flexible and true to yourself, then it will not be a conflict. This goes along with keeping your mind open.

"I know one thing: that I know nothing" -Socrates


peregrinus wrote:
The problem of 'too many' only really becomes an issue if you start to 'own' their methods, take them as yours and as your beliefs, this is the core of the conflict mentioned. If you do not take ownership of their methods they are merely something floating around to be considered and incorporated into the solidifying thoughts and beliefs within you, changeable and flexible as they get molded by your other discoveries. At this time being solid and rigid will do you a disservice if you are seeking to learn and expand your thoughts and beliefs, being flexible is the key.
This brought up a personal experience that relates to my time with pua.

When I started I took everything to heart and 'copied' the material. I went out and re-acted what I saw in videos and lines I read online. The experience was empty and sowed little fruit that lasted. I was picking rotten apples infested with worms. :D

The few times I had success...and to think of it now, those times I was usually heavily intoxicated. I know why that is now...I needed to be! The conscious mimicking I was doing was going against my gut and my own word...I was being a conscious actor trying to mimic connection, and that's not me! Essentially I was swimming upstream with all my might and I was in the wrong river as well. ;)

I remember that I did the same when I first came here too. I took Kidds knowledge and tried to be something I wasn't in that moment. Gradually the lessons revealed themselves to me due to the influences here and the experiences I experienced. :geek:

Great question Sniper and great answer peregrinus!


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