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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 8:50 pm 
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"Why are you Spartan women the only ones who can rule men?"
"Because we are also the only ones who give birth to men."

Gorgo, Queen of Sparta and wife of Leonidas, as quoted by Plutarch


Did you know that the idea of gender equality originated from Sparta. Trust me, this is a seriously interesting topic.....

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:59 pm 
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I Don't think it's a good idea for women to rule over men. Everything on this forum proves against it.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:44 pm 
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fufe wrote:
I Don't think it's a good idea for women to rule over men. Everything on this forum proves against it.


I don't think 'Leonidas' of the three hundred Spartans would literally get bossed about by his wife.

The author/questioner was probably making a comparison between the Spartan women and the Athenian women. Athenian women had to wear the vail and were not allowed to be seen or even named in public and they couldn't speak to another man without their husbands permission ect.

Spartan women on the other hand could own property (some of the richest landowners were woman), they could be openly critical of men , they were well educated ect.

Does it not seem as if the Spartan women were (in some respects atleast) like the women of today? But do the men of today seem at all like the Spartans?

Perhaps the Spartan men would have felt that they had a higher purpose? Perhaps the criticism from woman was welcomed if it helped them achieve it? Perhaps homes and comfort were not valued by the men? Money too? What does the term 'spartan' mean as an adjective today?

Ect.....

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:26 am 
sounds like they were big tricks to me. They went and died in wars for nothing. If I remember history correctly, they bragged about being 300 men fighting a massive army and were glad to die for women who owned everything while half their men were slaves.

Also, our society reflects a lot of ancient empire themes. It is not good, and if you've ever stepped into a western bar then you should know that guys act like they're spartans all the time. It's enough to give you a headache.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:32 am 
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Well it may sound like just big tricks to you, but as with most things in the ancient would, they tended to be built around the necessity of survival. Something we moderns don`t always appreciate. I don`t really think that they had much choice in the matter. Spartans were not really into bragging and were not the type to frequent bars ect..

I`m not suggesting that anyone go off into the woods and become a Spartan. Simply that they are a very interesting culture from an anthropological point of view and a useful point of reflection. They did some things much better than us and some things much worse.

The one good thing that I particularly had in mind was that they recognised that women were extremely good at finding the weaknesses in men. "Growth begins when we begin to accept our own weakness." can you see the potential benefit here....

Slim Titan wrote:
Also, our society reflects a lot of ancient empire themes.
exactly, that`s one very good to examine them. Its a bit like looking at your childhood.

Im not saying that you should become a spartan but people have been able to learn things from them.

Civil rights movement ------ enlightenment philosophers ------- Plato ------ Sparta ...

Sorry about the headache.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:44 pm 
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Spartans actually weren't that enviable. The equality was promoted because there were under constant threat of revolt from the helots (slaves) who outnumbered them 5:1. They practiced male infanticide etc. Fierce warriors, but were incapable of long drawn out campaigns, and could not adapt to new situations.

Some of the battles that Athens lost (unrelated to Sparta) would have crippled the Spartans for generations but the Athenians were able to recover very quickly.

Sources: Took four classics courses at university for electives

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:49 pm 
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Altair wrote:
Spartans actually weren't that enviable.


ignoratio elenchi!


Altair wrote:
They practiced male infanticide etc.
between 1970 and 2013 there were over 51,888,000 abortions in the US alone. Fifty One Million!

Image

(Stab it in the neck when its inside = not murder. Stab it in the neck when its outside its murder.)








Altair wrote:
Fierce warriors, but were incapable of long drawn out campaigns, and could not adapt to new situations.
How long did the Peloponnese war go on for? Who won it? I think that both the invasion of Greece by the Persian Empire (up to that point the biggest that ever existed I do believe) and the growing Athenian Empire could rightly be considered new situations.

Altair wrote:
Some of the battles that Athens lost (unrelated to Sparta) would have crippled the Spartans for generations but the Athenians were able to recover very quickly.
Yes because Athens was a navel power. If the Spartans lost on land like the Athenians did then by definition they wouldn't have been the best fighters on land. If the Athenians lost at sea like the Spartans did then it would have been a much shorter war and the Spartans would still have won. Didn't the Spartans control the WHOLE of Greece for decades after the war, until the end of the Corinthian war where it took Thebes, Athens, Corinth, Argos, and the Persian Empire to defeat them?


The last two quotes are a bit irrelevant to why I originally made the post.


Sources: Last year of BA Philosophy and Classical Studies.


Edit."(unrelated to Sparta)" If you mean the Sicilian expedition then the Spartans definitely had a big hand in that.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:42 pm 
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Didn't they also fade into history because they couldn't sustain their population? I'm pretty sure they became a tourist attraction for the Romans.

Ignoratio elenchi would apply if you just wanted to debate semantics, but I prefer to look at the big picture and the ultimate usefulness of something.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 7:09 pm 
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Hasn't every culture faded into history for some reason or other?

Ignoratio elenchi is a logical fallacy . It will aways apply.

Ignoratio elenchi = Missing the point.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:02 pm 
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I know what it means...I had to Google it but still lol.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:03 pm 
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Altair wrote:
I know what it means...I had to Google it but still lol.


Honestly, I haven't memorised all the Latin terms or anything. Just happened to have read a book about this particular fallacy - which is probably just as sad. 'Experience and its Modes' by Michael Oakeshott.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 7:50 pm 
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Interesting, I'm a geology major so my contact with literature isn't anything special.

Pretty good at looking at rocks though ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:26 pm 
Altair wrote:
Interesting, I'm a geology major so my contact with literature isn't anything special.

Pretty good at looking at rocks though ;)


I think that's more important than learning about classical literature for most people. It's where 90% of the world's wealth comes from. Js.

There is no singular fundamental movement that will turn the tides to a better society. It will be a mass individual change in the male population that will sway societal change. It has always been that way.

A much better example of a population to look at would be the dominicans from like 1700 or 1800 to the 2000's. Each and every one of the black dominicans facing subjugation took their own route to prosperity and overtook the society in like 100 years becoming the wealthy elite and setting new laws along the way. Now that's something to study.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:20 pm 
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Altair wrote:
Pretty good at looking at rocks though ;)


Well you better be dam good if your thinking of putting a ring on my finger babes :geek:

You do know the weaknesses of the Spartans. One of the reasons why I posted this was because I found some surprising similarities between their culture and ours. Increased competition among males particularly in the ghettos where children are brought up by women alone for example. And because of the necessity of having a serious and dedicated attitude towards ones purpose in life etc.



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:27 pm 
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Slim Titan wrote:
A much better example of a population to look at would be the dominicans from like 1700 or 1800 to the 2000's. Each and every one of the black dominicans facing subjugation took their own route to prosperity and overtook the society in like 100 years becoming the wealthy elite and setting new laws along the way. Now that's something to study.


This does sound interesting. I will have to look into it. 50% of my of my World Philosophy module has turned into a radical philosophy module with civil rights and identity politics included. On the down side feminism is included as well ... someone threatened to stab me on the first day :D

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:53 pm 
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Slim Titan wrote:
There is no singular fundamental movement that will turn the tides to a better society. It will be a mass individual change in the male population that will sway societal change. It has always been that way.

A much better example of a population to look at would be the dominicans from like 1700 or 1800 to the 2000's. Each and every one of the black dominicans facing subjugation took their own route to prosperity and overtook the society in like 100 years becoming the wealthy elite and setting new laws along the way. Now that's something to study.

The opposite that the chinese fella here pointed out about....Africa
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLOvdgXSy_Q

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:41 pm 
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If you want to look at fierce warriors, the Sikh history is quite amazing.

In 1705, 40 Sikhs fought against 1 million Mughal Forces (with 4 million more as backup). Hence the quote by the 10th Guru:
"Sava lakh se ek ladau, tabhi Gobind Singh naam kahau"
meaning "I will make my sikh fight 1.25 lakh (125 000), only then will I call myself Gobind Singh".

Throughout history, many have tried to wipe them out, including three (!) superpowers. However unlike the Spartans, they are still here 8-)

The point regarding equality for women and strong men is interesting as well. The Sikhs gave women freedom for instance arming them. Initiated women (and men) are to be armed, at all times (!).

Article: 5 Battles in Which Sikhs Were Greatly Outnumbered
https://www.sikh24.com/2014/05/20/5-battles-in-which-sikhs-were-greatly-outnumbered/#.WMxhameUm9w


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