Natural Freedom

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 Post subject: Re: Fuck it
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:12 pm 
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I highly, highly doubt you are going to have any problems 8-)
Altair wrote:
I guess I find it difficult to believe it doesn't work interpersonally as well.
For me it's more of a balance thing. You've already got more of that sharpness than you need I'm guessing, so it will just come out when it needs to. Often it doesn't at all.

It also makes logical sense - people want to be around people that make them feel a certain way. Often it feels downright shitty to be around someone who is 'better' than you especially if they have even a very subtle vibe of making sure you know it. If you have attractive qualities, sometimes just being a little bit more chill and *approachable* / open can turn it all around. For me that had to do with letting things go, not having something to prove. You can be the right person on all needed fronts, but the comfort level isn't there for others to just come right out and make it clear to you. Remember noone wants to be rejected, on any level, and the 'better' you get whether that's personal business etc., the more others will perceive YOU as someone who might reject them. Often you make huge improvements but your system still reacts from the old way, like it has something to prove, and it's too much. Or you're so used to needing to do things from an old version of yourself that you actually don't need to do anymore. You actually do better by downplaying what you once emphasized.

Like a girl who is making a point to show how attractive she is, when if she's naturally attractive to begin with, that's actually off putting. At least for my taste - It's actually more attractive when she makes no big deal about whatsoever. She doesn't need to prove it because she IS it.

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Last edited by Flow83 on Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fuck it
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:21 pm 
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So that's how I came off to women - Intimidating, emotionless, sexually-rejecting automatically to most of them, etc
Not surprising at all in the end, the pieces of the puzzle come together quite well
The sad thing is that I knew this for a long time, subtly, but somehow didn't focus on it

Also, any advice on overall emotional numbness, Flow ? General supression of emotions


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 Post subject: Re: Fuck it
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:51 pm 
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Numbness is a feeling. There is a subtle quality to it. Because you get something so subtle and not what you expect, you immediately label that as suppression, numbness, and generally approach it as a problem to be fixed which shuts everything down. You don't welcome that numbness probe into the nuances of it, or ask what might be there that feels the need to be blocked. If that's what it is doing it is doing so for a reason- which again, you can only get directly from the source.

It is a nice protective mechanism, it lets us say "well I have this special problem where I am numb to my emotions, so I need some special process or thing I need to discover" which is how it avoids confrontation. The good news, and the bad news, is that you are not special and the process is essentially the same 8-)

Also, I wouldn't assume how you are coming off to women nor worry about it. There are a lot of things it can be, and 'i'm intimidating to them' is the most flattering for our egos but it is something you check in with, it may or may not be the case. Women are not the barometer for this, your inner state is. The rest comes from that.

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 Post subject: Re: Fuck it
PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 12:10 am 
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Flow83 wrote:
Numbness is a feeling. There is a subtle quality to it. Because you get something so subtle and not what you expect, you immediately label that as suppression, numbness, and generally approach it as a problem to be fixed which shuts everything down. You don't welcome that numbness probe into the nuances of it, or ask what might be there that feels the need to be blocked. If that's what it is doing it is doing so for a reason- which again, you can only get directly from the source.

It is a nice protective mechanism, it lets us say "well I have this special problem where I am numb to my emotions, so I need some special process or thing I need to discover" which is how it avoids confrontation. The good news, and the bad news, is that you are not special and the process is essentially the same 8-)

Also, I wouldn't assume how you are coming off to women nor worry about it. There are a lot of things it can be, and 'i'm intimidating to them' is the most flattering for our egos but it is something you check in with, it may or may not be the case. Women are not the barometer for this, your inner state is. The rest comes from that.
I didn't mean intimidating as too much to handle, but, well, they are afraid I will tell them to fuck off too hard and be only cold to them without any affection or feeling.

I actually very strongly believe that if my inner state is ok and I don't have any blocks around the neccesarry stuff, that there is nothing standing in my way to get women
Quote:
If that's what it is doing it is doing so for a reason- which again, you can only get directly from the source.
I understand what you guys are doing - I tried it a few times, even guided through but.. I find things may happen while doing it, but I also felt like nothing is happening. It feels like scratching a surface and not going deeper, because I don't want to - I wouldn't know what to do with emotions out of control. It happened to me once and I was dysfunctional for 2 weeks and depressed really hard after that - No amount of allowing helped me through that..
I also have EXTREMELY hard time gcalling and watching emotional issues on command especially when told by another person. Most of the time the issue hides or masks and the process can't go on, Imho at all, because there is endless spin of different things and nothing gets really looked at..

Only looking at the issue, the emotion(s) and logically trying to see what is the issue trying to protect me from or get me. Seeing it as a mechanism operating because it hat is still believes it is profitable to be doing what it does.
I solved "depression" with this.
You remeber how I used to self-loathe a lot - This happens when I have no idea what to do with my emotions. My highest priority is being functional - Now. Not after a few seconds or minutes sitting and hoping on faith that somehow the emotion will make up it's mind and let go. No. I lead it and when it's seen that there's no profit in doing what it's been doing, it let's go.

I am grateful for another, your perspective. It confirmed what I've been thinking today - That I have to solve the overall-numbness issue as I did lot of other issues, that there is no other way getting around, and this is the harsh, cold truth. I was having second-doubts because of the subtlety of the issue. And also, coming from and experience with the "depression", I know that if you live at one state 24/7 all your life, it is hard to comapre to what is normal and healthy and what is not..

I wish I could do what you guys are doing - I'm going to continue some sessions I still have with Ugi if he's interested, but in the end... The problem with what I'm doing, is that it feels like polar opposite of what you are doing. I don't know if you can do the same at the same time.
I tried FasterEFT after a long time again and I can't handle it - Had a session and I had to spend about 2 hours sitting and figuring what is behind the feeling of hopelesness, fear, etc - I was told only to tap, which I did for about 20 minutes with no change, so I did what I know worked and it worked - It was an issue of having to be certain of everything.
It feels in the end simmialr to what you are doing - The most efficient way I've found out is seeing the emotion the most precisely possible and letting the words come to describe what it wants. Now reading this it feels like the same that you do lol, but I know it's a little bit different
It's the attitude.. But If I didn't have the goal-oriented problem-solving attittude, I'd be careless even indifferent (in a not so productive way) to my problems and nothing would be done, only life lived still dysfunctional because of the issues..

Sadly I don't know anybody who is doing the same thing as I do. I found this process out by pure blind faith in myself, when at one point I was sitting down and I said to myself "I have to figure this out now". And after a while I did


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 Post subject: Re: Fuck it
PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:26 am 
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Flow83 wrote:
As for working with emotions, that really has nothing at all to do with non-duality, and it doesn't need to have any spiritual connotation whatsoever
It doesnt but non duality has helped me because many non duality teachers talk about the nature of emotions and how to deal with resistence.
So I posted it here for anyone intrested....

Its often resistence which makes it hard to do what you suggest

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 Post subject: Re: Fuck it
PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:32 am 
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Sniper wrote:
It doesnt but non duality has helped me because many non duality teachers talk about the nature of emotions and how to deal with resistence.
So I posted it here for anyone intrested....
Ah I see.
Quote:
Its often resistence which makes it hard to do what you suggest
Amen to that!
It's always a bitch.

For me I need to either:

1) make some kind of commitment in a place where other people can see it and hold me to it, usually with some consequence. Sometimes I've given $$ to friend in paypal and if I don't do it they spend it.

2) invest an amount of money in something (for example my membership to where I exercise) where I say man if I don't go, that's way too much money to waste, I HAVE to use it.

If I just think it's a good idea or say yeah i'm gonna sit down and work on this thing every day it's so much less than when I do one of those things that make me feel like I have to.

There's pretty much only one thing in my life that I have enough passion for that I am able to stay consistent with it even without setting anything up like that. But I do need to set the environment up to make it really easy to get to work, and have it easier to access that than the distractions.

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 Post subject: Re: Fuck it
PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:46 am 
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fufe wrote:
Sadly I don't know anybody who is doing the same thing as I do. I found this process out by pure blind faith in myself, when at one point I was sitting down and I said to myself "I have to figure this out now". And after a while I did
Good. So what's the problem then? Why does a post that ends with "i figured it out through faith in myself" also kinda sound like a lament?

Everyone who does this seriously has had to figure out how it works for them. They've probably seen their entire universe collapse in front of them more than once. I certainly have and that's far from over. What you learn is that you don't die, and begin to resist the process less. No one ever said it was comfortable. This type of growth is destructive, not additive. It strips away everything you are not. When it is embraced, including the discomfort, suffering ends.

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 Post subject: Re: Fuck it
PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 11:01 am 
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Do we still have a treasure chest? I'd recommend this be put there, some great stuff from Flow here.

Or maybe just a Flow thread, like we have a grinus one?

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 Post subject: Re: Fuck it
PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 12:55 pm 
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Flow83 wrote:
Good. So what's the problem then? Why does a post that ends with "i figured it out through faith in myself" also kinda sound like a lament?
It kinda is. I feel sad about the fact that I'm the only one I know is doing it this way, but I also know I can't operate "like everybody else" at this point (another issue)

The problem is only my laziness... :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Fuck it
PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 2:36 pm 
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It's something you hold very close. Having the unique, special problems and circumstances that noone else does and noone else can understand gives all sorts of validity to not doing what you know needs to be done. You always need to be a little different than "you guys," even when you are addressing a group of people with radically different perspectives, processes and views. You might think you are sad about it but you are far more concerned about seeing it for the total illusion it is.

Everyone wants to fit in (safety), and everyone wants to be totally unique and special (freedom/self expression etc). Every internal conflict comes down to safety vs freedom.

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 Post subject: Re: Fuck it
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 9:53 am 
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Flow83 wrote:

Everyone wants to fit in (safety), and everyone wants to be totally unique and special (freedom/self expression etc). Every internal conflict comes down to safety vs freedom.
Your definition of freedom is unique to you
Your definition of safety is unique to you

I remember B.Proctor telling a story about a man who had billions
and lost nearly all his money until he had "only" a million.
The "millionaire" thought he was poor, so he killed himself. :shock:

Talking about disempowering beliefs, rules and definitions.

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 Post subject: Re: Fuck it
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:14 pm 
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Jared wrote:
Flow83 wrote:

Everyone wants to fit in (safety), and everyone wants to be totally unique and special (freedom/self expression etc). Every internal conflict comes down to safety vs freedom.
Your definition of freedom is unique to you
Your definition of safety is unique to you

I remember B.Proctor telling a story about a man who had billions
and lost nearly all his money until he had "only" a million.
The "millionaire" thought he was poor, so he killed himself. :shock:

Talking about disempowering beliefs, rules and definitions.
Important point - and yes it's fascinating.

Some only feel safe surrounded by people.
Some feel like everyone in the world is a threat.

Also because 'you' are made up of many things, it's possible to have two contradictory ones at the same time, which is why people are often in a total stalemate.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 8:49 pm 
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Btw I tried just looking at the emotions like you suggest and while it's beyond my understanding of what's happening most of the time, it seems it really is moving things - It's really subtle and often non-noticable but I noticed now that some things seems little bit different, even how I see myself in the mirror and feeling I get from myself is different.
I'm also becoming generaly interested in doing things just for doing them.. That is a big change
Quote:
It's something you hold very close. Having the unique, special problems and circumstances that noone else does and noone else can understand gives all sorts of validity to not doing what you know needs to be done. You always need to be a little different than "you guys," even when you are addressing a group of people with radically different perspectives, processes and views. You might think you are sad about it but you are far more concerned about seeing it for the total illusion it is.
I agree with this. It gives me also inner feeling of having social status - Without that illusion I don't know how would I see myself. But I'm getting my status by actually building something up, so that will be unecesarry in time - I know I'm trying to get something else from all of this too, but I don't see it clearly yet
Quote:
Everyone wants to fit in (safety), and everyone wants to be totally unique and special (freedom/self expression etc). Every internal conflict comes down to safety vs freedom.
This is very interesting+important. Do you want to elaborate more on this ?


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 9:04 pm 
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That's good man - feeling stuff happening, not having any idea what the hell it is but just continuing to stay with it, will continue the process. It will do what it does. It's a matter of consistency not forcing anything or worrying about some big breakthru or insight. You don't expect a big change every time you go to the gym. If you keep going and just do what you can handle with good form it's going to yield results.

If you've ever done a serious cleanse diet w/ food (can't recommend this enough), all sorts of crazy stuff happens, a lot of it is not pleasant. If you stop the second things get intense and go back to eating junk, you'll feel 'better' but won't have made the changes. Then you'll say "I tried that, and it didn't work for me. I need to find some special trick"

That's what pretty much feeds multiple, multi billion dollar industries.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 9:33 pm 
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As for safety/freedom just take a look at any situation in your life and check for yourself.

Want a secure job that pays well, want to create art all day that is purely self expressive and doesn't want to 'sell out.'

Want to go talk to that girl, don't want to get rejected (so I'll learn all this stuff, the right stuff to say, become super indifferent so she likes me first, etc. etc. -- when it's coming from safety, which it is for most in the beginning, they are just techniques. When you see it for what it is you can move on.)

Want to be a success, don't want to be judged, have to be held to a higher standard, higher pressure, etc.
Want to work for myself and be free, don't want to have to deal with every single aspect of the business, taxes, all the expenses/responsibilities, damn it's a lot easier to be an employee.. but still bitch about my boss.. etc.

want to be accepted by the group, want to be off on my own, or perhaps above/smarter/better than everyone in the group

a million others.

If you didn't have these two agendas, there would be no conflict. You could literally just go take the highest paying safest job and never for a second feel any sense of 'i'm not expressing myself, this is too boring, etc.' We would mate with the first person who seemed healthy and would pass our genes and stay together because that is the safest option and then be done. No 'what else is there?'

Ants, squirrels, whatever, don't give a shit about freedom or their individuality. Work for the queen all day until I die. Give me as many nuts as possible and I'm good. That's it. Communism would work, we'd all be fine with having our needs met and not feel like our individual vision is being squashed.

If there wasn't a built in natural pull towards safety you'd just go do and say whatever the hell you wanted. Social anxiety would not exist.

The evidence is everywhere and is the root of any tension you feel about anything. They are both important but one is usually over compensating. They need to be free to mix so the right combination can appear in a moment, so you don't live the most boring safe life in the world but also don't want to be saying stupid shit, blurting your heart and soul out to everyone you meet.

You usually try to choose one side mentally, but that doesn't really matter because you are just bounced around from side to side not going anywhere if it's not addressed with some solid work-- which again is just a matter of being with what you are feeling and looking at it so you can get back in the drivers seat.

You still have to work within the laws of the car, but you do want to be the driver.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:52 pm 
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Flow83 wrote:
That's good man - feeling stuff happening, not having any idea what the hell it is but just continuing to stay with it, will continue the process. It will do what it does. It's a matter of consistency not forcing anything or worrying about some big breakthru or insight. You don't expect a big change every time you go to the gym. If you keep going and just do what you can handle with good form it's going to yield results.

If you've ever done a serious cleanse diet w/ food (can't recommend this enough), all sorts of crazy stuff happens, a lot of it is not pleasant. If you stop the second things get intense and go back to eating junk, you'll feel 'better' but won't have made the changes. Then you'll say "I tried that, and it didn't work for me. I need to find some special trick"

That's what pretty much feeds multiple, multi billion dollar industries.
Care to recommend a good cleanse diet that you've tried? I've done a 72 hour fast and that was way too much, couldn't stand studying or working.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:41 pm 
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This has been a very deep post and has delved into metaphysics, a very esoteric topic that people within upper-middle-class society and above study and practice. I state this because, although I was vaguely familiar with metaphysics, I never once heard about metaphysics in the educational realm until I got into graduate school, and of course, when you’re in graduate school or above, ideally, you are supposed to be setting yourself up for becoming a leader within society. I touched on metaphysics some within another post here. :mrgreen:

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Smart people learn from their mistakes. Smarter people learn from others' mistakes. Stupid people don't learn from anyone's mistakes including their own.

You get what you deserve.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:05 pm 
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I used this very old book, mucusless diet healing system -

If you eat what you might call a standard american diet, you'll have to stop eating 90% of what you do.

I did this type of diet for a few months and then fasted for 2 days or so. After the fast my entire tastes changed and physiology changed. I turned into a vegetarian because I lost all taste for meat and couldn't really digest it anymore. Hypersensitive to caffeine and never have it anymore. Whole bunch of stuff like that.. no willpower involved at all, it's just the way my body is. You basically get to reset yourself closer to zero so you find out how you actually react to things and what works for you, instead of what temporarily satisfies you based on how it interacts with the 9 billion things going on in your system.

It will be a pretty grueling series of months for some but if you stick with it, you will be permanently changed forever (well we're going on 9 years or so for me and still strong).

I am not an expert and there are probably lots of books but don't mentally masturbate about it. Just pick something solid and do it. Someone I trusted recommended this book so i just did it and did not read others or look for counter views. Green vegetables are good for you. Corn syrup is not. Completely cut the shit that is blatantly not good and eat a lot of things that you can't argue with being good and get on with it.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 10:56 pm 
Flow83 wrote:
I used this very old book, mucusless diet healing system -

If you eat what you might call a standard american diet, you'll have to stop eating 90% of what you do.

I did this type of diet for a few months and then fasted for 2 days or so. After the fast my entire tastes changed and physiology changed. I turned into a vegetarian because I lost all taste for meat and couldn't really digest it anymore. Hypersensitive to caffeine and never have it anymore. Whole bunch of stuff like that.. no willpower involved at all, it's just the way my body is. You basically get to reset yourself closer to zero so you find out how you actually react to things and what works for you, instead of what temporarily satisfies you based on how it interacts with the 9 billion things going on in your system.

It will be a pretty grueling series of months for some but if you stick with it, you will be permanently changed forever (well we're going on 9 years or so for me and still strong).

I am not an expert and there are probably lots of books but don't mentally masturbate about it. Just pick something solid and do it. Someone I trusted recommended this book so i just did it and did not read others or look for counter views. Green vegetables are good for you. Corn syrup is not. Completely cut the shit that is blatantly not good and eat a lot of things that you can't argue with being good and get on with it.
This is interesting.

It reminds me of college. My body was physically averse to a lot of the foods they served. I would vomit it back up at times.

I think there is something to be said about taste buds too. For example, there are some foods that taste ridiculously amazing to me like carrots. I can eat them raw along with a lot of other foods my family can't stand. However, there are some foods I just can't physically stand that are meat, pasta, or vegetables.


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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2015 5:14 pm 
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Flow83 wrote:
I used this very old book, mucusless diet healing system -

If you eat what you might call a standard american diet, you'll have to stop eating 90% of what you do.

I did this type of diet for a few months and then fasted for 2 days or so. After the fast my entire tastes changed and physiology changed. I turned into a vegetarian because I lost all taste for meat and couldn't really digest it anymore. Hypersensitive to caffeine and never have it anymore. Whole bunch of stuff like that.. no willpower involved at all, it's just the way my body is. You basically get to reset yourself closer to zero so you find out how you actually react to things and what works for you, instead of what temporarily satisfies you based on how it interacts with the 9 billion things going on in your system.

It will be a pretty grueling series of months for some but if you stick with it, you will be permanently changed forever (well we're going on 9 years or so for me and still strong).

I am not an expert and there are probably lots of books but don't mentally masturbate about it. Just pick something solid and do it. Someone I trusted recommended this book so i just did it and did not read others or look for counter views. Green vegetables are good for you. Corn syrup is not. Completely cut the shit that is blatantly not good and eat a lot of things that you can't argue with being good and get on with it.
Thanks a bunch man, I'll start the system next weekend. I've just gotten done with a 72 hour fruit and vegetable-only detox, which was very interesting in terms of changes in my mental processes and overall energy/focus.

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