Natural Freedom

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:47 pm 
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Maybe people should read this again: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=972

Anyway as always, time will tell.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:55 pm 
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ahk wrote:
Maybe people should read this again: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=972

Anyway as always, time will tell.
Ah - yes, but I don't think Meraki is engaged in battle - does not seem attached to winning the 'game' or winning her 8-)

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:25 pm 
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While that's great, harboring any kind of illusions or ignorance of women and their nature or the world in general is generally stupid if not actively harmful. Decisions taken under such circumstances would never work out.

Indifference to outcome doesn't really help anybody if you keep getting bad outcomes. You need knowledge and information and a true picture of reality to make better choices.


Last edited by ahk on Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:28 pm 
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ahk wrote:
While that's great, harboring any kind of illusions or ignorance of women and their nature or the world in general is generally stupid if not actively harmful. Decisions taken under such circumstances would never work out.

Indifference to outcome doesn't really help anybody if you keep getting bad outcomes. You need knowledge and information and a true picture of reality.
You are clearly trying to "help" somebody who doesn't want it
If somebody true doesn't care, he doesn't need anything
But I understand your concern


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:43 pm 
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Actually one of my beliefs is that people cannot be helped. I try to prove this wrong sometimes and test out my other beliefs as well.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:48 pm 
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Interesting to see how this has become about ahk. So good at doing that, this forum is. ahk, you remind me a bit of some of StephenP's earliest posts here.
ahk wrote:
Indifference to outcome doesn't really help anybody if you keep getting bad outcomes
Yes! I think your on the verge of seeing it now!

Indifference ISN'T about getting any outcome, good or bad.

Indifference isn't a technique to get something.

If you are trying to use indifference as a means to get some outcome, then by definition you are not actually indifferent! The two are mutually exclusive.

Indifference is a goal in and of it self, and the reward for becoming indifferent is... Indifference!

----------------

The oak tree doesn't try to reach out and grab a bird that is flying by. The oak tree has branches that are nice to perch on. What this forum is about is teaching oak trees to not try to use their branches like arms, to not try to reach out and grab birds that are flying by. Imagine such a silly thing - an oak tree trying with all its might to move its branches in order to grab a bird. The oak tree is only deluding itself if it thinks that is a good idea. Oak branches aren't built to do that kind of thing.

No, instead this forum teaches you to make your branches better to perch on, and if they are better to perch on, birds will see that, and they will come perch.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:52 pm 
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Agreed with almost everything above. But if the bird is flying away because the oak tree is bad, that information can be useful no?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:01 pm 
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You just want to maximize your success rate because you are still attached
The point is, when you reach indifference, your view will be most probably different, so the discussion may be irelevant..


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:04 pm 
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Ahk when you describe the "bad outcome" which I am guessing, from the context is losing the girl? Please describe the good outcome. I'm not being sarcastic. If you don't believe it's happiness -- or are calling bullshit on the idea that he will be genuinely happy regardless of the outcome (which would mean it's literally NOT 'a bad outcome' to him- just that girl isn't there anymore, but still happy), what would be the ideal scenario. Is good = doing whatever will keep the girl, bad = losing her -- is it about not being deluded.. so that you can make the 'right' choices (but again what is the criteria for right)

Suppose you could literally take over his brain and actions here -- what is the good outcome, the course of action you would like to see happen.

Is it to beat this girl at her game -- is it to call her out-- if you 'win' - what does that mean, she continues to sleep with him (which seems like it is still very easy and on the table)

Again, I am not being flippant. You obviously feel there is an objectively 'good' outcome -- and that happiness/indifference is not it, being that the main theme of his post was how 'great life is' and how good it feels :)

is it that if you understand things properly, the girl will always act a certain way? -- is it BECAUSE of doing things right/wrong that this happens and is that predicated on proper understanding of the 'true nature' of women.. would you describe all the most successful guys with women, whatever that means, as the ones who have the most 'understanding of it' (there are guys that seem to me would be useless in a conversation, would never read a forum, don't know shit about any of that, but have tons of casual sex with women super easily, and go on about their day or to the next one with little thought of it)

Just trying to see the context. It seems that "good" or "bad" outcome, understanding, happiness etc is based on the results with the women.

Because we could literally be in a car/subway/plane accident at any day, have our house destroyed by weather, contract an illness-- since everything we have including our bodies WILL end and we don't have so much control over it, the 'indifference to outcome' to me is something that goes a lot deeper.

For me - good or bad outcome is relative to what you WANT, and even that is on a deeper emotional level than the thing.. it's usually I want whatever feeling I think xyz thing will give me.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:17 pm 
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Interesting questions Flow. I'm curious to see how ahk responds.
ahk wrote:
But if the bird is flying away because the oak tree is bad, that information can be useful no?
Of course. One way to judge whether the branches are good to perch on is to see how many birds come perch.

But if one bird decides to fly away, that doesn't mean anything. One bird could be crazy, could have a parasite in its brain that makes it get all antsy and uncomfortable and fly away when the branch is too perfect to perch on. It could have a flea whispering lies in its ear while its perching, and it listens to the flea and thinks that the flea speaks the truth.

The oak tree doesn't need to figure out what each bird is thinking about the branch its perching on while it is perching or while it is flying away. Results speak for themselves.

Oak trees will never really understand bird brains anyway. Oak trees maybe can learn to predict bird behavior with a reasonable amount of accuracy, but that is learned from observing birds, not from following their thought trains.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:57 pm 
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Ok to me a good outcome is one you have put in some effort towards, and a bad one is the opposite of that happening.

If you are putting no effort towards anything, you have to be dead, since living itself is an effort.

This is unrelated to happiness, since you can take actions indifferent to the outcome. I think happiness is overrated anyway.

In the case of girls, if you have taken any effort at all, like say meeting her, it is for an outcome. You are deluding yourself if you pretend the outcome isn't wanted, since then you wouldn't meet her. So, the bad outcome is the opposite of what you want, like say she flakes.

Now, with knowledge of women and sex signals and stuff, you can make a choice of putting in that effort or not.

Since you can only choose or control your own actions, the outcome still is not under your control. It takes two to tango. But your actions can affect her choices and vice versa.

So you taking the right action based on reality and not illusory beliefs is a net positive. The only game you play is the one of taking right actions versus taking wrong actions. This is tough to determine but knowledge of reality is one way to improve at it.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:16 pm 
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As an example, the knowledge that 'women choose' can help you decide not to put in a lot of PUA effort. But you can still put in the effort if you wanted to with no change in happiness levels if you are indifferent to the outcome.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:38 pm 
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Oh man. Sooooooooooo much interesting stuff to look at here. We're starting to really get down to it. I'll let Flow go first because its his line of questioning, but I'm excited to see where he takes it. :D 8-)

Edit: Woooo.... 200th post...

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:32 pm 
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Just to summarize:

I'm saying: if you observe women, analyze interactions and improve what you can in yourself, you'll have better outcomes/results
(hopefully this is familiar stuff)
You guys are saying: we don't need to do all that since we are indifferent. No really. We are really really indifferent.

Seems to me like parallel tracks or something.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:51 pm 
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Starting to sound more like apathy if you ask me. Apathy is VERY different from indifference. :geek:

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:09 pm 
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The difference between apathy and indifference is almost non-existent to a person who hasn't experienced both. I've seen it explained countless times, but actually had to have that "aha" moment to know what it is.

Shit Meraki, your thread got hijacked :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:40 am 
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ahk wrote:
You guys are saying: we don't need to do all that since we are indifferent. No really. We are really really indifferent.
I'm saying that? News to me. It has already been stated that indifference is not a technique or about changing outcomes-- it is NOT a substitute for knowledge or skill, something I harp on a lot (though maybe more on my own digital home than here.) You don't start knowing how to play the piano because you don't give a shit about playing piano. You study it and learn it. Despite the sentiment that we are on parallel tracks, we agree :)

Of course you would like it to go the way you want. Nothing about the word indifference implies absence of desire or intention. If your self esteem and sense of worth is super invested in it going well though, you are FAR less likely to have clear headedness, the ability to be more objective and observant and see what is going on, what was you, what was totally out of your control, etc. Indifference doesn't even mean you don't dislike when it doesn't go the way you want or feel any disappointment - but your whole ego does not ride on it. This type of self knowledge (if you think that's bullshit, ok then) where the word 'happiness' or peace is sometimes used is different than the satisfaction of having a desire and fulfilling it. That is still nice even orgasmic when it happens. It is however only that - satisfaction of a desire. If that was end game then all rich famous people who have the means to literally satisfy any desire at will would be the happiest people and certainly never kill themselves.

I get the sense that you are warning against naivete and delusions of power and mastery over 'dumb' women - like a whoah, slow down, she is smarter than you think and knows what she is doing here. If that is accurate I dig that and appreciate that.

I don't think they have just bowed down to your ultimate mastership of indifference and therefore you have them on a string and you hold all the cards, you are in 'control' etc. I still think what you can do is set your terms, know what you want, and be willing to walk if that is either not happening or begins shifting into territory where that's the way it is going to be.

There are all sorts of ways to handle that, things to 'do' - mindset etc. and the guys who are good at that, i am ALL ears to hear. This includes yourself - more on that later.

I am not high fiving Meraki because I think he mastered this girl or something - the girl is secondary and was actually a secondary point of his post. I am high fiving the fact that he is in many ways getting what he wants, seeing it is a way to improve, is finding from his improvements that he has options and women are interested in him, that he does not need to chase down sex or cut off his balls and can get what he wants rather drama free.. I like the fact that he is NOT coming from 'what do I need to do to play this right so I win and this girl is mine' but from a willingness to stand by his terms he defined, let the next thing happen and do it better. He even literally asks for advice on 'things to do next time', extremely contrary to the idea of 'well i'm indifferent so i don't have to do anything' But most importantly was the inner aspect that this is low down the list on his life.

I know Meraki from the balls project (a place you would hate :P ), a bit more personally ie skype / video calls and he hardly talks about women, it's all his passion and business ideas and stuff he is super excited about and working on so it is funny for me to even picture him being all deeply concerned about 'how do i do this right?!' regarding this woman like it's a huge deal in his life.

So let's put all the happiness and indifference bullshit aside -- and get to what you are interested in (and all men are interested in!) RESULTS

You imply that you have an understanding/viewpoint that is more rooted in true reality / nature of women, have said many here are naive etc. (I, admittedly, knew nothing of the 'pimp tight' etc, am a junky on the inner work side of things and was drawn to the title of 'awakening and self-realization of men' in the title and that is where I come from, so I fully admit to minimal knowledge of that stuff) This would mean that your knowledge yields better results than most, based on the criteria you defined as good outcomes -- getting what you want. Otherwise what the fuck is the point of the knowledge? So, I take it you get what you want and know how to do it better than Meraki did to get a better result. So will you share it? Not hypothetically, not 'women are xyz' or generalizations -- what would you have done here, based on what you DO that yields the results you want? What would you have said, or not said, or have done to avoid this situation in the first place- you mentioned the telling everything, which I took to mean you would have shared all the details had she asked. What else - how do you USE this knowledge?

My other question I am interested in is the motive of the women etc. I am having a hard time seeing how this changes the game -- ie, i set my terms, this is what i want, this is what i'm willing to accept to get it and not compromise.

Let's say hypothetically I could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that this woman who came up to me, told me I was cute, took my info, reached out, came over and had sex with me (something I used to think was impossible to happen to me but now know is not at all), and then started doing some type of 'test' thing-- that it was totally pre-meditated, that she was a conniving genius with a master plan here and knew every move she was making including the sex. What changes? How does this change what I do? If it crosses my boundaries and I say 'no' - and if it pushes I split - whether she's some naive angel doing it out of naivete or a secret agent with a plan - how does it affect me? We still hook up and then continue or not continue - yes?

Again, I dig the not being naive part and thinking stuff like 'wow, she had SEX with me - and she complimented me - I am the MAN and this girl worships me like a god and there is nothing else going on here!' -- but this is way past that. I assume nothing and am open to all of it as a possibility. Does this actually change the plan of action here? Isn't the whole reason guys fall for stupid manipulative bs BECAUSE of their attachment to sex, to having a girl, or even beating her at her game rather than moving on?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:29 am 
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Moose wrote:
Shit Meraki, your thread got hijacked
Hahaha. I don't mind. This has been quite interesting. :mrgreen:

I second much of what Flow said, so I'll try not to overlap what he said too much.
Flow wrote:
ahk wrote:
You guys are saying: we don't need to do all that since we are indifferent. No really. We are really really indifferent.
I'm saying that? News to me. It has already been stated that indifference is not a technique or about changing outcomes-- it is NOT a substitute for knowledge or skill, something I harp on a lot (though maybe more on my own digital home than here.) You don't start knowing how to play the piano because you don't give a shit about playing piano. You study it and learn it.
Ditto. ahk, at some point you will have to stop assuming. I never said that indifference means you don't do anything else. Indifference is about being indifferent, results are about results. The two are separate, and not in conflict. You can learn how to get better results whether you are indifferent or not. You can learn how to be indifferent whether you are good at getting results or not.
ahk wrote:
Ok to me a good outcome is one you have put in some effort towards, and a bad one is the opposite of that happening.
I find this fascinating. Why do good things require effort? I don't agree with that at all.

Unless of course you have a different definition of effort. If you think breathing is effort, then I guess life (and all good things in it) require effort.

But if what you're saying is that more than baseline effort is required for all good outcomes, then I disagree. Personally, I see all outcomes as good outcomes. Some are more good than others, but they are all good. Life itself is good.

Imagine life is a river. Many guys who come here show up feeling like they are being drug along the bottom of a river, suffocating in the mud and rocks. Then as they swallow the red pill they often start by getting angry and trying to fight to swim against the current, going upriver.

After the anger leaves, apathy is often left behind, which is like swimming over to the bank and hanging on to a rock in an eddy. Feels good after the struggle swimming upriver, but ultimately who wants to be stuck in an eddy, watching life go by? Finally, when you let go of the bank, let go of apathy, can you allow yourself to flow with the current of the river, but always heading downstream, peaceful in being carried with the current.

You can choose to put some effort in to paddle left and right as you want to snag some result over here or over there, but you never fight, and you never sink, just float. If you don't put the effort in to paddle to the right side of the river, maybe you don't get a certain result over there on the right, but that might mean you can see a different result over to the left that you are now in position to paddle towards.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:19 am 
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Flow, I'm not going to rehash my other posts, so I'll give another example.

The girl informed Meraki 'I'm over it'. I find this very interesting. It could of course be nothing at all, just a bare statement, or it could be laden with poignancy. This knowledge would prompt me to take actions, at the very least to find out which, and would affect my further actions a whole freaking lot, depending on the outcome I want, even to the extent of changing the outcome I want.

SMH.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:30 pm 
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Actions > words, don't take @ face value and stay on toes to observe for what is really going on - don't assume your indifference means you are always playing the smartest hand - ?

Making smartest decisions based on the info available and understanding of context is a huge win, obviously.

I would say there is a personal-preference aspect of how deep you want to go with it -- based on how important the goal or topic is to you, whether you want to take it to mastery or just be able to enjoy the benefits of playing a little smarter/better.. also how deep you want to go with it for that girl (ie get to the bottom of this) or if you'd rather not invest the energy / let the chips fall where they may, if that makes sense.

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