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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:28 pm 
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Ok, I’ve been commenting on other people’s posts a fair bit recently, but I realized that I haven’t really shared much of my own stuff in a number of months. Feel free to offer insight, commentary, criticism, critique, etc.

Most of the reason why I haven’t posted is that I don’t feel any pressure or seeking about women that I need to investigate or get help with. I don’t feel residual anger towards the social matrix or women and their manipulations - that left me months ago. After I let go of my anger and indignation, I was left with apathy for a while, but then I let that go as well. You might say the red pill has fully worked its way through my system.

I don’t suffer over getting or not getting women anymore. There is a carefreeness and peace about it, but its not the peace of the monk meditating in a cave who is peaceful only because there is nothing there to trigger him. I feel peace even though I am dealing with women regularly now.

I no longer struggle with my inner demons. I have realized that fighting them is futile. Its like trying to arm wrestle yourself - not only is it a foolish fight, but its also incredibly awkward to actually attempt to do it.

I sat down and took a long hard look at myself - all of myself, including the parts I didn’t want to look at - and I realized that none of “me” was good or bad. It just is the way it is, and labeling it one way or another helps nobody, least of all me. I no longer have things I like about myself and things I don’t. I just am who I am. I accept myself fully, both in moments of quiet meditation, and in moments of intense action.

----------------------------

I’ve been dating this girl for a couple months now. She’s had a string of guys (most of whom I’m friends with) that she’s run through, because she’s a pretty hot commodity. She’s 25, and probably at or around her peak marquee value. She’s dumped each one of these guys, and almost right away the next one steps up, but they all run up her ass and are needy and insecure. I asked her about one of the guys, and she said he took her out on dates and called her and texted her non stop for a month. Then she finally slept with him, and literally the next morning he got all nervously worked up and asked her, “ok, can we call each other boyfriend and girlfriend now?” He got cut off right then and there.

Me? I’m the opposite. I see areas where I can improve, things I would slightly change if I had it to do over again, but in general, she’s the one tying herself up in knots about me. About a month and a half in, she did something I did not approve of, and I came close to cutting her off, but she essentially begged me for another chance. Since then her level of investment has grown and she’s making all sorts of excuses to come see me, wants to make plans days to a week in advance as opposed to day of, or night before. When I do agree to some plan in advance, she checks to make sure I’m not going to flake, even though I haven’t flaked on any plans yet. Sometimes she comes over and before she’s even through the front door she’s all sexually worked up, and I have to tell her to cool it a bit and hold her horses.

Possession of ball = definitely mine. My handle is not perfect - I still need to work on getting my first step quicker, but my crossover dribble is getting pretty good.

---------------------------------

Just yesterday we were driving, and an incident from about a year ago came up. Its an incident that I didn’t handle all that well and I’m a bit regretful of, but I’ve kept it on the DL and I know the other party involved would suffer greatly if anyone knew the details. It wouldn’t bother me too much if details got out, but I know it would bother the other party a lot, so I don’t tell anyone. Period.

Girl I’m dating now started asking me questions about it, started pressing me on it. I just laughed and said, “You’re spinning your wheels here. I’m not going to tell you anything about that, so I would recommend not wasting your energy on it.” In general I’m pretty open and honest, so she kept pressing, and I responded, “there are things about me you do not know, and will never know. Nobody gets unfettered access to my mind or soul, so drop it.” She was not happy with this, but she did not ask anymore, and the rest of the car ride was mostly spent in silence, or talking about some logistics for hanging out later.

Later in the evening we’re at a big party with all my friends and I can tell she’s still worked up and unhappy that I won’t answer her questions. I don’t really want to hang out with someone who’s unhappy with me, so I just go chat with my friends, joke around, meet a few new people, and generally have a good time. I was ignoring her, but I could tell she was watching me, keeping tabs on me, etc.

None of the guys I talked to showed any recognition of the subtle tension between me and this girl, but after about an hour I think most of the women there could feel it, and it was like an electromagnet got turned on. There was one girl there who’s been jocking me consciously for a few months now, but I don’t see her that often, and it was like she had blinders put on and she had tunnel vision for me. She was following me around, always wanting to be part of whatever conversation I was involved in, maneuvering to stand or sit next to me, etc.

There were three other women who have been subconsciously jocking me for a while now, and they were continuously bumping me as they were walking by, or putting their hands on my arm while talking, leaning up against the same wall I’m leaning against and then slowly inching closer and closer, or even getting just coming up and standing back to back and engaging in a different conversation than me, but standing just a little closer to me than you normally would. I had to turn off the proximity sensors because I couldn’t handle all the warnings that were going off non-stop.

----------------------------------

Girl I’m dating ends up leaving without really saying goodbye, and two of the girls who were subconsciously jocking me (who are roommates) take me out for some late night after-party grub (they bought, of course).

The one thing I regret with girl I’m dating is that I didn’t do a very good job laying out the contract at the beginning, and so I think it would cause me more drama and headache than its worth to hook up with one of the other chicks that are jocking at this time. I don't feel any particular need to hook up with any of these other chicks, might as well avoid the headache for the time being. I’m happy to bide my time, and I’ve learned my lesson for next time about making sure the contract is clear, and that I'm looking only for non-exclusive dating.

We’ll see what happens with girl I’m dating. It’s possible she’s really worked up over this and she’s going to hang herself with the rope I’ve given her. Its also possible she’ll cool off for a day or two and then come back acting right.

The beauty is that it does not matter to me.

She can do what she wants to. If she knows what’s good for her she’ll let go of this manufactured “drama”. I am an oak tree, she is a bird who was happily sitting on my branch, but now she’s gotten all chirpy and agitated and took off for a flight. If she comes back and lands on my branch again - fine with me. If she keeps flying to another tree somewhere else - also fine with me. That will free me up to let another bird (or birds) come sit on my branch.

My life is great either way, and its up to her to decide if she wants to keep dealing with me on my terms, or to lose me.

-------------------------

So thats where things sit in my corner of the world. Hope the rest of you gents are doing well.

For those of you just starting the journey, you have come to the perfect place. Every piece of advice you need is already right here on this board. The rest of what you need for the journey is already inside of you, you just might not know it yet.

For the more experienced guys - life really is wonderful, aint it? Thanks so much for all the guidance and wisdom. No amount of anonymous internet thank you's would be enough.

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"The society gives you a map; I give you only freedom. The society gives you character, I give you only consciousness. The society teaches you to live a conformist life ... I give you an invitation to go on an adventure." - Osho


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:54 pm 
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Nice man.

I don't have a lot of experience with relationships, meaning something other than ultra casual and stated out front as not going to be a relationship-- this is really just paraphrasing of what I've gotten from a lot of mentors, guys with more experience (who actually do well with them, 'experience' of multiple shitty relationships is irrelevant) etc --

Everyone of them I know, who is not trying to sell you a product, says that there is not some thing you can do to virtually eliminate "created" drama like the scenario you described-- as in none of it, ever, in the context of a relationship. Women do that to some extent as part of their nature. I've heard some acknowledge it and say even the value of letting her go and have her drama because it's something they do. The real power you have is to be unattached to it, not let it affect you, not fall into the trap of seeking the approval to try to "fix it" so she "likes you" again -- and to be willing to walk if any lines are crossed. All of this sounds like you have done. Just saying that I don't believe you should automatically see any drama's like that as some sign of doing something wrong, nor to expect that it would be a one time and then never again deal. I guess you would just have to check in honestly to say, am I doing something here, or is she just going off and doing one of those things that women do. Only that by consistently being unwavering in your own position that the futility of it can be realized to some degree on her end.

I'm sure anyone here w/ more experience will set things straight on that.

As I see it the actual power is in the non-attachment -- the dating coach/ pua / etc "promise" that there is some type of ultra alpha state you reach where you can have relationships for years with virtually zero risk of any drama, confrontation, or any chance of rejection or a woman leaving you ever is meant to play off of men's deep fears and insecurities. No matter how 'alpha' you are, they can leave or life can happen. So good on you for putting the emphasis there while still acknowledging the logistical/practical side of it too.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:57 pm 
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Interesting journey you are on Meraki :ugeek:

Enjoy the sights along the way

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:59 pm 
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Meraki wrote:
life really is wonderful, aint it?
Stay there.


Keep yourself where the light is.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:01 pm 
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Flow wrote:
Everyone of them I know, who is not trying to sell you a product, says that there is not some thing you can do virtually eliminate "created" drama like the scenario you described. Women do that to some extent as part of their nature.
Yea man, right on. I don't blame her for it. It would be easier for her if she didn't do it to herself, but thats her choice entirely.

Sometimes the bird gets all antsy just need to take a little flight to realize that she actually liked the branch she was sitting on. Sometimes she takes her flight and winds up on another branch that might be better/worse/the same. Doesn't matter to me.
Flow wrote:
The real power you have is to be unattached to it
Bingo.


Scarf and Grinus: :D

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:04 pm 
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Meraki wrote:
Sometimes the bird gets all antsy just need to take a little flight to realize that she actually liked the branch she was sitting on.
THIS!!!!

Oh THIS!!!
Meraki wrote:
Sometimes she takes her flight and winds up on another branch that might be better/worse/the same. Doesn't matter to me.
The penny has dropped.

Fun times ahead.

To re-iterate from earlier:
Meraki wrote:
I am an oak tree, she is a bird who was happily sitting on my branch, but now she’s gotten all chirpy and agitated and took off for a flight. If she comes back and lands on my branch again - fine with me. If she keeps flying to another tree somewhere else - also fine with me. That will free me up to let another bird (or birds) come sit on my branch.

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In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:27 pm 
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You still have time to 'clarify the relationship' with her...but have that sit down SOON. :ugeek:

Remember...Unicorns don't come with instructions...so you need to provide them. ;)

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Last edited by The Kidd!! on Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:46 pm 
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The Kidd!! wrote:
You still have time to 'clarify the relationship' her...but have that sit down SOON. :ugeek:

Remember...Unicorns don't come with instructions...so you need to provide them. ;)

Hmm... I can see how that could work. We'll see if/when she reaches out to me (which my gut says she most likely will), but maybe it would be useful to have a clarifying the relationship chat. I'll see what the gut says if/when she contacts me. 8-)

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:52 pm 
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Meraki wrote:
The Kidd!! wrote:
You still have time to 'clarify the relationship' her...but have that sit down SOON. :ugeek:

Remember...Unicorns don't come with instructions...so you need to provide them. ;)

Hmm... I can see how that could work.
What does "work" mean?

It doesn't seem like a technique to me. Clarifying the relationship seems like one of the very few things in a relationship that is required from us- saves a lot of bs for your own sake. Catch of course is we have to be clear ourselves on what we want :)

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:36 pm 
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Flow83 wrote:
What does "work" mean?

It doesn't seem like a technique to me. Clarifying the relationship seems like one of the very few things in a relationship that is required from us- saves a lot of bs for your own sake. Catch of course is we have to be clear ourselves on what we want
Well, right now how it sits between us is that she would be pissed if I were to hook up with anyone else. In her mind things between us are probably already clear, even though we've never explicitly stated either way whether its exclusive or not, she thinks it is. This is due to my not setting out my terms clearly at the start. (Like I said, lesson learned.) If she does get pissed, its going to be too much headache and too many social ramifications = not worth it.

However, if she comes back and is acting right, then I could say, "you know, this little tiff has made me wonder about whether you and I are on the same page with how things are between us. I just want to make sure that expectations are clear and that we're on the same page." Then I could lay out how I don't really want to be in an exclusive committed relationship - its just not where I'm at right now, you can take it or leave it, etc.

If she reaches back out to me, then it means she's already consciously decided that she isn't ready to move on. Basically this would be a good time to negotiate/re-negotiate the terms of engagement.

So, what I mean by "work" is that I could get what I want, which is be non-exclusive, and yet avoid drama at the same time, and she would be crystal clear on the contract.

This of course is predicated on seeing if/when/how she reaches back out, and getting a gut feeling for whether she would accept the new terms of the contract, etc.

Kidd - I assume this is pretty much what you were suggesting, right? Anything I'm missing or need to rethink? Any other tips?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:52 pm 
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Yeah...that's basically it. :geek:

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:58 pm 
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@ Kidd!!: at what point, ideally, do you think it's best to 'lay down the contract'?

Not looking for a hard-and-fast rule; just your opinion.

@ Meraki: *roark stands up & applauds*

One thing I thought was pretty funny:
Quote:
When I do agree to some plan in advance, she checks to make sure I’m not going to flake, even though I haven’t flaked on any plans yet.
Do you think this is because she has done it in the past (when the dynamic was the opposite of the one she now has with you)? To wit, Mirror? :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:24 am 
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On the issue of secrets to protect someone else, I've usually found that just to be an excuse and that the other person neither needed nor expected my 'protection' and would mostly not even reciprocate if the situation was reversed. I also dont feel the need to 'save' anyone from themselves or their actions. So I tend to avoid or reject having such a burden placed on me.

Also curious is why you think unfettered access to your mind/soul would be harmful. I'd actually welcome such an interaction. And being honest, open, having no secrets has in fact led to a point where other people cannot actually get their hooks/claws into me or hurt me in that way (which frustrates them sometimes).

Seems to me the girl saw that you didn't trust her, and hence couldn't trust you in return. So she's distancing herself and leaving you for the other girls to catch.

Also, knowing how clever/cunning women are, it is possible she already knows the truth of the secret (if she was the one who brought up the topic) and questioned you just to see the reaction. The truth always gets out. And anyway with women the facts don't usually matter, it's your response that does.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:05 am 
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ahk...are you a girl :shock:

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:12 am 
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Ahk - I appreciate your posts, and I think you are generally pretty well spoken and have good insights, but you are reading things that I haven't written. Before in another thread I said that you were projecting, and I actually don't know if you are projecting or not, but you certainly are assuming.
ahk wrote:
Also curious is why you think unfettered access to your mind/soul would be harmful.
I never said that. You are assuming that I think it would be harmful.

Its more that its just straight up impossible. I have many thoughts, and I am having them all the time, and I don't even remember most of the thoughts that I have had. Many of the ones that I'm having now are incomplete and incomprehensible without understanding experiences and memories and thoughts from the past. My perspective of this reality can never be shared completely, its just not possible.

So no matter what I'm going to communicate summaries and interpretations to someone else. Because I'm summarizing and interpreting, inherently what I communicate is going to be biased, its going to have a particular bent to it. If you ask me to describe an event, and then you ask someone else to describe it, our descriptions are not going to be the same.

Whether it would be harmful or not is irrelevant to me, because its impossible, so why even debate it?
ahk wrote:
On the issue of secrets to protect someone else, I've usually found that just to be an excuse and that the other person neither needed nor expected my 'protection' and would mostly not even reciprocate if the situation was reversed. I also dont feel the need to 'save' anyone from themselves or their actions. So I tend to avoid or reject having such a burden placed on me.
Doesn't matter if they would reciprocate if the roles were reversed, that is irrelevant to me and my actions. Additionally, its not a burden being "placed" on me. The other party in this case never asked me to not talk about it, rather its my feeling that they would suffer if I did. I'm doing this because I see no reason to cause this other person undue suffering, especially since as I said, I didn't handle the situation very well at the time and so its kinda "my fault". As I said, it would bother me a bit, and my estimation is that it would bother the other party a lot, so it would be better for everyone just to let it fade into the past.
ahk wrote:
Also, knowing how clever/cunning women are, it is possible she already knows the truth of the secret (if she was the one who brought up the topic) and questioned you just to see the reaction. The truth always gets out.
She doesn't. She had no idea about it. I brought up that there had been this incident that didn't go so well in order to explain why that other person was acting kinda awkward. Then she wanted to know all the 'juicy' details basically just to gossip. I said no. There you have it.
ahk wrote:
And anyway with women the facts don't usually matter, it's your response that does.
I agree. Thats the best part of your post right there.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:02 am 
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The framework I'm coming from is 'Women outhink men and run circles around them' and 'Everything out of her mouth is a test'. The framework you and most others (even here) seem to have is 'women are inferior, illogical creatures who like drama and dont know what's good for them'

You say this girl is hot property, experienced with men, able to cut off relationships decisively, has no trouble finding replacements. You also say she was insecure about you, invested, making plans, confirming you wouldnt flake, begging for a chance when she made a mistake etc. In the space of a conversation she went from all that to silence and withdrawal and then not caring if other girls hit on you, not even saying goodbye. You then say this silence and withdrawal is 'manufactured drama'. In my experience, drama involves more of yelling, scratching, biting, tears with the occasional smashed wine bottles thrown in, and even that is usually purposeful. So it all feels very incongruent to me.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:43 am 
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Or her ego is fueled right now by some orbiter - OP didn't fed it, she's not used to it, so for some time she'll be leeching betas, but will come back.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:20 pm 
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The actions of a hot girl shutting up and withdrawing dont seem congruent with a woman having an inflated ego either. Wouldn't an egotistical woman be more likely to make a scene and grandiose statements of her worth/value?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:14 pm 
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ahk wrote:
The framework I'm coming from is 'Women outhink men and run circles around them' and 'Everything out of her mouth is a test'. The framework you and most others (even here) seem to have is 'women are inferior, illogical creatures who like drama and dont know what's good for them'

You say this girl is hot property, experienced with men, able to cut off relationships decisively, has no trouble finding replacements. You also say she was insecure about you, invested, making plans, confirming you wouldnt flake, begging for a chance when she made a mistake etc. In the space of a conversation she went from all that to silence and withdrawal and then not caring if other girls hit on you, not even saying goodbye. You then say this silence and withdrawal is 'manufactured drama'. In my experience, drama involves more of yelling, scratching, biting, tears with the occasional smashed wine bottles thrown in, and even that is usually purposeful. So it all feels very incongruent to me.
For me it has nothing to do with inferiority or stupidity but rather a totally different perspective. It often SEEMS to make 'no sense' to a guy why a woman would seem to get so emotional about something, that it is just random, pointless, unintelligent etc. From the standpoint of nature a lot of it does make a type of 'sense' to me - but not in a point where I would ever assume I could relate, be able to control it, that it is all based on me etc. These two very different views of the world and priorities in life for me means certain elements of what we call 'drama' will be inevitable over the course of a long term relationship where lives start to come together.

In this context -- 'i refuse to tell her about something,' = who cares, any reaction she has to it is just stupid and her issue. From her perspective, it very well could have all sorts of meanings -- trust, not letting me in, relationship depth, not having as much control as she thought -- who the hell knows it is all just ideas, could be a mix of all of them.

Hard to ever know if she truly didn't care about other girls hitting on him etc -- doubtful in the context. I don't see any conflict between the idea of 'testing' and this stuff. If she is going quiet, doing any dramatic change of behavior whether silence or throwing things, there is at least some if not a huge element of wanting to see what reaction it gets... what percentage of it is spontaneous emotional response and how much of that is incredibly cunning, calculated, smarter than we assume with clear agenda (or both?) I wouldn't assume to guess!

I feel it is important to be clear on what you are looking for and where you stand. He could take the attitude of "i need to pass this test from her correctly to make this work" or be on the, this is how I'm going to do things and if it fails her 'test' then ok, she leaves.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:05 pm 
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Ahk, your doing it again. You really should stop assuming.
ahk wrote:
In the space of a conversation she went from all that to silence and withdrawal and then not caring if other girls hit on you, not even saying goodbye.
I never said she didn't care when the other girls were hitting on me. In fact I think it bothered her immensely. I think thats why she left actually - she didn't want to watch it, but she didn't feel like she could do anything to stop it. It doesn't help her that she's pretty introverted and not super comfortable at parties to begin with.

I think she definitely not the kind of girl you're thinking of. I don't really know what kind of girl you imagine her to be, but from your posts I'm pretty sure you are not imagining her correctly. She's doesn't have model looks (she's cute but not that hot). She's not a party/club girl. She hasn't always been in high demand. She has a lot of demand more because of demographics and the particular hobby/sport she does (and me and all my friends do). Its a male-dominated hobby/sport. She's very very good at it - top 1% of women and better than most of the guys around here, and she's cute, so therefore she's in demand. But in high school/college she wasn't in much demand because demographics and activities weren't on her side, so in many ways she's not used to the abundance of men available to her. She's got plenty of insecurities. She still is uncomfortable and embarrassed about her own body, even though clearly there are many guys who think she's cute.
ahk wrote:
The framework I'm coming from is 'Women outhink men and run circles around them' and 'Everything out of her mouth is a test'. The framework you and most others (even here) seem to have is 'women are inferior, illogical creatures who like drama and dont know what's good for them'
The way I see it, there are a small percentage of women who actually do out think normal men and run circles around them. However I think 90% of women don't consciously out think men. They just out-act them. They don't consciously think "hmm... I need to test this guy - what test should I throw at him now?" Rather they just act based on what feels right, which is mostly trained into them by watching their mothers do the same to their fathers, by TV and movies, by culture in general.

Now just because 90% of women don't out think men, doesn't mean that the reverse is true. I don't think that 90% of men out think women. Rather I think that 90% of women and 95% of men don't think much about their romantic relationships in general. They just do whatever they were programmed to do, and therefore neither of them can really be described as "out thinking" the other.
ahk wrote:
The actions of a hot girl shutting up and withdrawing dont seem congruent with a woman having an inflated ego either. Wouldn't an egotistical woman be more likely to make a scene and grandiose statements of her worth/value?
I actually don't think her ego is particularly inflated. Like I said, she's got plenty of insecurities, and she doesn't think she's that attractive, or that her shit don't stink, etc. I think the way she thinks about her past year or two is that she's had plenty to needy insecure chumps who want to date her, but very few real men who she's actually attracted to. In fact, I know the one guy she actually really wanted to date in the two years before I came along turned her down because of his religion. The rest of the guys she's dated have been guys she hasn't actually been that attracted to, hence the easy to dump them, because she was never really into them.
ahk wrote:
So it all feels very incongruent to me.
This was the part of your post that I agreed with the most. If things feel incongruent to you, maybe you should check your beliefs. Maybe they're not matching up to reality. Oh, and maybe you should check your assumptions too. Maybe you don't know what you don't know.
Flow wrote:
For me it has nothing to do with inferiority or stupidity but rather a totally different perspective. It often SEEMS to make 'no sense' to a guy why a woman would seem to get so emotional about something, that it is just random, pointless, unintelligent etc. From the standpoint of nature a lot of it does make a type of 'sense' to me - but not in a point where I would ever assume I could relate, be able to control it, that it is all based on me etc. These two very different views of the world and priorities in life for me means certain elements of what we call 'drama' will be inevitable over the course of a long term relationship where lives start to come together.
Good points. Think about humans thousands of years ago - many babies never made it to adulthood. From the standpoint of nature, whatever her mom did behaviorally seemed to work pretty well because clearly she made it to adulthood. Therefore, as long as she just does whatever her mom did, she probably has a better chance than average to have her own kids make it to adulthood. Also, she can watch other women in her "tribe" (ie. culture) who are successful to see if she can learn from them and add it in to what she's picked up from mom.

The fact that a girl tests a guy doesn't mean that she has a conceptual, logical understanding of what she's doing, or even what a test is. She may just be doing it because it feels like the right thing to do at that time.

-----------------

She texted me around noon yesterday (actually while I was writing up the original post in the thread, but I didn't check my phone until 5pm). Here's what went down:

Noon:
Her: Sorry I didn't say bye last night. Hope you enjoyed the rest of the night.

5pm:
Me: Yeah, had a good time. You did leave pretty abruptly. You still unhappy, or are you done with that now?
Her: I'm over it
Me: Cool. blah blah blah talking about some other things.

Did she come to her senses because she saw those other girls hitting on me? Maybe. Was it a conscious "oh no, he's got other options so I should really re-consider whether what I'm doing is a good idea or not." Probably not, but who knows?. She's heading out of town for a few days, so we'll see how this all goes down when she gets back.
Flow wrote:
what percentage of it is spontaneous emotional response and how much of that is incredibly cunning, calculated, smarter than we assume with clear agenda (or both?) I wouldn't assume to guess!
This. ^^

_________________
"The society gives you a map; I give you only freedom. The society gives you character, I give you only consciousness. The society teaches you to live a conformist life ... I give you an invitation to go on an adventure." - Osho


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