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Author:	Meraki [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:09 am ]
Post subject:	Indifference, red pill, or ?
Ok, so this week I've been feeling like the shape of my reality has been changing, and I wanted to share my experience for others, and also to get feedback from people here. Your guy's feedback always is insightful, and I appreciate it. Getting down to it - I've been feeling a complete lack of sexual desire/motivation to interact with new girls at all. I had two new very beautiful girls jocking me this week, (one of them super blatantly), and I just couldn't motivate myself to go out of my way at all to make anything happen with them. ----------------------- Girl #1 was monday - at the gym, I was getting in a quick cardio session after lifting, and this girl, probably early 20s, very beautiful (probably could model, if she doesn't already) came up and took the elliptical right next to the treadmill I'm on, even though there's like 25 treadmills/bikes/ellipticals there and only one other one was occupied. Her perfume was intense, and she had way too much makeup on for her to be seriously working out. I didn't glance at her, just noticed her out of my peripheral vision and with my nose. She starts exercising, clearly doesn't know how to use the elliptical machine. I've noticed a slight change in my heart rate like my body is in a slightly heightened state, but I'm not at all mentally nervous or excited, and I don't feel any sexual arousal like I might normally. About 30 second in, she looks over at me obviously trying to get my attention, and says directly to me, "whew, I'm tired already." I look over at her and say with just a bit of a smile, "yeah... gotta work hard in here." Then I go back to my workout and proceed to ignore her, and she doesn't say anything else to me either. After about 5 more minutes I'm done with my workout and I leave. Here's the thing - I could have easily manufactured some reason to say something else to her, like giving her a pointer on how to use the elliptical, or I could have manufactured some reason to stay in the gym a little longer so I could "bump" into her over by the cubbies after she was done on her elliptical machine, but I just felt no desire to. Even though I knew that if I didn't make some effort to interact with this girl that there was a good chance I would never see her again, I couldn't bring myself to do it. I just kept thinking to myself, "this girls probably a bitch who wants to sink her fangs into me and suck me dry just like all the other manipulative bitches out there do with stupid ass men." Even though I feel like I can see the matrix pretty well in that respect, and so I guess I can defend against that scenario, I just can't help but think, "why would I want to deal with a human (male or female) who just wants to manipulate others and squeeze them dry of everything they have to offer?" Even if she was not a evil-hearted vampire, I didn't have any evidence that she brought anything to the table other than her looks, and if she had been a fat dude I would have said the same thing to her and left without thinking about it. Do you give give hot girls a greater chance to prove to you that they're worthwhile? If you do, then is that really being indifferent? Does it matter? ----------------------- Girl #2 was tonight (thursday), and very similar scenario, (mid-20s, beautiful, fit, etc.) but she wasn't nearly as blatant, and she gave me more space. I checked her out (and she knew I was checking her out), but I caught her in my peripheral vision several times just staring at me, or glancing at me in the mirror repeatedly (lots of mirrors in this gym, makes for good observing...). Not sure who checked the other one out first, but I don't think it really matters. I thought she was attractive and she clearly thought I was attractive, but I had the same complete lack of desire with her. Like I consciously knew she was hot, but my dick didn't realize it. I even got the vibe from her that she was "more real" and not trying to put up as much of a front (ie. not wearing makeup and perfume to the gym, actually being there to work out, etc), but I still couldn't help getting the negative thoughts about how she's probably as manipulative as the rest of them, and why would I want to invite that on myself... ----------------------- I've really been focusing on developing indifference this week. I've been doing this by asking myself over and over and over again, "would I really be ok/happy with my life if I never had sex again as long as I lived?" Each time I answer yes to myself, but I'm trying to feel out if that yes is coming from deep down in my core, or if I'm saying that just because I consciously know that's what I "should" respond. I figure that if I can respond yes to that question, truthfully and from my core, then that should be a pretty good sign that I'm indifferent. So, here's where I would really love some feedback - is this negativity part of being indifferent, or is it still part of calibration (ie. red pill)? If its not part of being indifferent, then I guess its just another phase of the calibration process to go through, or ??? If this is at least part of what indifference feels like, how do you guys who are indifferent motivate yourself to make something happen with girls? I don't feel any horniness/sexual energy so there's nothing pushing me to do it there, and those fairy tale dreams of soul mates and love at first sight certainly aren't motivating me, so it seems like its just inviting a potential pain in the neck into my life that I'll have to deal with. Do any of you get motivation from being able to feel powerful and manipulate those who are normally doing the manipulating? I don't feel like I have that motivation, and I don't think I really want it either. Seems like a big waste of energy, since these girls haven't done anything in particular to me, so why should I go out of my way to get back at them? Do you get motivation out of the potential to get something from them (ie. money)? I have money of my own, and I don't think that (past a certain point) more money really brings more happiness, so I'm not feeling very motivated by that... I guess thinking back to Marquee Value Theory - if the value they bring is their hotness, but their hotness is not valuable to me, then what would make me want to interact with them? Any of you guys who have been through this have insight? I know Mikey Swag is going to tell me that he doesn't get why I didn't follow through ... but the rest of you all?

Author:	peregrinus [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Indifference, red pill, or ?
Bravo Many interesting thoughts in this post for the members to discuss. I look forward to seeing the posts to come.. Some people may want to refrain from jumping in straight away, you know who you are.... Let them bounce this around a bit first.

Author:	GoldenBoy [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:53 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Indifference, red pill, or ?
Looking forward to see the other comments, because these questions come regularly to me too ... so I have nothing to say, except kudos to you sir Meraki, you're indifferent on a whole new level now.

Author:

fufe [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:23 pm ]

Post subject:

Re: Indifference, red pill, or ?

Hmm. About the first girl I have a question.
this:

Quote:

this girls probably a bitch who wants to sink her fangs into me and suck me dry just like all the other manipulative bitches out there do with stupid ass men." Even though I feel like I can see the matrix pretty well in that respect, and so I guess I can defend against that scenario, I just can't help but think, "why would I want to deal with a human (male or female) who just wants to manipulate others and squeeze them dry of everything they have to offer?"

Is that an observation of this particular girl, or asumption ?
You don't know if her behavior overall is at least tolerable or better, until you observe for a while, no ?
I mean.. What evidence did you expect to find in that short situation ?
By no means you did wrong, just your asumptions are what I'm wondering about..

The second, same thing..

Author:

GoldenBoy [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 1:07 pm ]

Post subject:

Re: Indifference, red pill, or ?

fufe wrote:

Hmm. About the first girl I have a question.
this:

Quote:

To answer your question :

Quote:

I just kept thinking to myself,
...
Even if she was not a evil-hearted vampire, I didn't have any evidence that she brought anything to the table other than her looks,

Don't you understand the mindset behind this ?

It's the ASSUMPTION that the nature of women/interactions is like this, UNLESS proven wrong ... (meaning they have to be/do/say something that would make him be like "wow this person's interesting").

-----

First girl was dead-on either ego gratification or at least manipulative (no real will to exercice, makeup, perfume) -> What more do you want to start building a profile

Second girl was interested but probably just shy or waiting for him to make a move (like everyone else before him did when she looked them up and smiled or shit like that) -> Passive woman who will probably front and act like he's more into her than contrary ...

The lesson here is that now he doesn't give a shit and is kind of surprise that even though he could probably have at least one of them, he is not interested in it anymore.

Anyway that's how I interpreted it ...

Author:	fufe [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 1:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Indifference, red pill, or ?
Ok I can understand that. But I think this belief will hold him back. It doesn't seem like "expect the worst, hope for the best", only the first part

Author:

GoldenBoy [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 1:36 pm ]

Post subject:

Re: Indifference, red pill, or ?

fufe wrote:

But I think this belief will hold him back.

How ?

By not giving attention to attention whores ?
By treating people accordingly instead of pursuing them at the first sign of interest ?

fufe wrote:

It doesn't seem like "expect the worst, hope for the best", only the first part

If I were at his place, the 'hope' part would probably go down when when they talked or glanced ...

The first girl didn't HAPPEN to wear makeup, have strong perfume and take the machine next to him for NO reason ... then what did she do, she drops her bait line FOR HIM TO MAKE ALL THE WORK because SHE'S interested in HIM ...

These reasons are the downfall of hope in my case, because they clearly demonstrate that they were what I expected... (women who are accustomed to men pursuing them and would act like they're on a pedestal even though she has already bitten Meraki's bait ...)

Damn I wanted to hear other people comment on this.

I'll stop writing in this thread from now on

Addendum :

TheModernLibertine on success, indifference and more..... wrote:

Women are big time chasers of men i countries like Finland or Denmark from what I understand. American women not so much...not to say that I am going to go through any extra effort to get what I want from them. The conclusion I've come to is that there are women who will chase men anywhere in the world. I'm not willing to put in a lot of effort to get with a girl. It happens or it doesn't. Whatever. I have better things to do with time, but because of that attitude it's usually pretty effortless for me to get women worked up because they have zero power on my sense of well being and they can sense it.

Author:

The Kidd!! [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 2:36 pm ]

Post subject:

Re: Indifference, red pill, or ?

Quote:

Damn I wanted to hear other people comment on this.

I'll stop writing in this thread from now on

See? Maybe now you'll understand when I say:

FUFE! SHUT UP! PUSH-UPS...NAO!

Author:	Aragorn [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Indifference, red pill, or ?
I feel very similar to the situation you're describing (I'm even starting to see signs of interest as a sort of negative thing, since I feel completely unable to do anything about them). Kidd said it's a calibration phase in my case, and I'm starting to see that he was/is right, and I think it applies to you as well. Don't even worry about it and keep on doing what you're doing, you're on the right path. I'd sub the cardio for some swimming if you have a lane nearby though

Author:

peregrinus [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:40 pm ]

Post subject:

Re: Indifference, red pill, or ?

Meraki wrote:

this girl, probably early 20s, very beautiful (probably could model, if she doesn't already) came up and took the elliptical right next to the treadmill I'm on, even though there's like 25 treadmills/bikes/ellipticals there and only one other one was occupied. Her perfume was intense, and she had way too much makeup on for her to be seriously working out.

She approached. She cast the bait and waited to see how you would respond.. When you did not she then opened you in a really non committal way.

Meraki wrote:

I didn't have any evidence that she brought anything to the table other than her looks, and if she had been a fat dude I would have said the same thing to her and left without thinking about it.

This is a very valid point.

Really, other guys, what was going on here? what was she offering? what was she looking for?

Meraki wrote:

I've been doing this by asking myself over and over and over again, "would I really be ok/happy with my life if I never had sex again as long as I lived?" Each time I answer yes to myself, but I'm trying to feel out if that yes is coming from deep down in my core, or if I'm saying that just because I consciously know that's what I "should" respond. I figure that if I can respond yes to that question, truthfully and from my core, then that should be a pretty good sign that I'm indifferent.

Nicely put.

Meraki wrote:

I guess thinking back to Marquee Value Theory - if the value they bring is their hotness, but their hotness is not valuable to me, then what would make me want to interact with them?

See above.

Why do men place value on the hotness of women?
Does it really have so much more value than other qualities they may possess?

Author:	rant [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Indifference, red pill, or ?
i don't know but i feel dry,every time i get close to indifference i hit a wall about sexual imaginery, i realized but not sure that there is no real necesity for sexual imaginery or hornyness unless one have a negative vision of sex, so the sexual desire most men feel is not even normal, and women have a tremendous capacity to turn me off but for the average men that's what turn them on.

Author:	StephenP [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Indifference, red pill, or ?
You do know that it's perfectly acceptable to notice a hot chic(s) jocking you, do nothing, and carry on with your day stress free?? Or is it??

Author:

Meraki [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:44 pm ]

Post subject:

Re: Indifference, red pill, or ?

Thanks for all your replies guys. Here's my responses where I have something to add.

fufe wrote:

Well, GoldenBoy pretty much picked out my conclusions, but it might prove useful for you if I describe my own thought process. My observation went like this:

1) hmm, there appears to be a hot girl getting on the machine next to me, and it seems like she doesn't know what she's doing.

2) man, my nose is overwhelmed with perfume - she's wearing way too much. Too much even if this were a nightclub...

3) (out of the corner of my eye) hmm, she appears to also have a ton of makeup on, and have put some effort into her hair and kept it down, even though working out with your hair down must be a big pain in the ass. Chicks that really workout put their hair up in a pony tail. She's clearly not ready to sweat what with makeup/perfume/hair.

Then my analysis went like this:

1) Ok, so its obvious she's not here to workout. What is she here for?

2) Best case scenario, she's here to get some attention and have her ego validated - she's trying to get hit on. If this is true, I guess there's a chance she might be an ok person, but she's insecure with herself and is dependent on external validation to feel good. This would probably make her a pain in the ass to have around.

3) Worst case scenario she's here looking for a sugar daddy/provider. She wants to find someone she can manipulate and turn into her workhorse, or at least get someone to buy her shit and do things for her, and she thinks the way to do this is go where more successful people are (I would be that guys that go to the gym are a little older/more successful than the guys she might typically hang out with or find in a bar). She's basically a human leech, looking for her next victim.

4) Most realistic scenario - probably somewhere in between. She's probably not quite as conniving/evil as the worst case scenario, but probably not as innocent as the best case scenario.

Conclusion:
Even if she was the best case scenario, she would have to show me something more than just her hotness before I would want to interact with her. She has shown nothing of the sort, and the chance that she would show that seems slim at best = waste of time.

Second girl I felt like maybe there was slightly more chance that she might be a decent human being, but that was mostly because my opinion of her was more neutral. She didn't give off as many of the warning signs. Maybe I should have said something to her and given her a chance, but like I said - I didn't feel any desire to do so, so I wasn't going to force myself to. I'm focusing on working on myself here. I'm focusing on becoming ok with the idea of not ever needing sex again - why would I seek out an interaction that would degrade myself, and put the ball in her court.

I guess maybe thats where ball stealing comes into play, but feel like I'm not there yet where I should start playing the ball stealing game.

-------------------------

@ GoldenBoy - you're analysis is pretty much exactly how I see it as well. I'm curious to see what others have to say.

-------------------------

moose35 wrote:

I'd sub the cardio for some swimming if you have a lane nearby though

Nahh... I swam competitively from age 5 through 18, and played water polo age 12-18. I've swum enough laps for a lifetime. Plus for me to get a decent workout swimming just takes too long - I would need to spend 45 minutes in the pool. Maybe my stroke is too efficient? I can get the same kind of workout in 15 minutes of intervals on a treadmill/stationary bike/elliptical machine that I could in 45 minutes in the pool. Plus arms already worked from lifting, just wanted to get 20 minutes of cardio in post lifting, so using my legs was better for that. But to each his own - if swimming works for you, have at it!

-------------------------

rant wrote:

i don't know but i feel dry,every time i get close to indifference i hit a wall about sexual imaginery, i realized but not sure that there is no real necesity for sexual imaginery or hornyness unless one have a negative vision of sex, so the sexual desire most men feel is not even normal, and women have a tremendous capacity to turn me off but for the average men that's what turn them on.

Not sure I follow you there rant... Maybe the language barrier? Do you mean sexual fantasizing about a certain woman, or just in general?

-------------------------

StephenP wrote:

You do know that it's perfectly acceptable to notice a hot chic(s) jocking you, do nothing, and carry on with your day stress free??

Or is it??

Haha. Nice bait there StephenP...

Consciously knowing that you should be indifferent, regardless of the hotness of the girl is one thing. Incorporating it deeper into your core is another thing entirely. Its a whole different visceral body-reaction than before, and I couldn't help saying to myself: "Wow, this is different..."

I guess one place I'm still unsure is whether I should be looking for further changes of this nature (ie, this feeling is just one stepping stone along the path), or whether I've made the big mindset shift and its more a matter of fine-tuning mindset now through more reading and experience...

Author:

Meraki [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:45 pm ]

Post subject:

Re: Indifference, red pill, or ?

The Kidd!! wrote:

Quote:

Damn I wanted to hear other people comment on this.

I'll stop writing in this thread from now on

See? Maybe now you'll understand when I say:

FUFE! SHUT UP! PUSH-UPS...NAO!

Oh, and Kidd - I laugh out loud every time you do this to fufe. Good shit...

Author:

The Kidd!! [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:50 pm ]

Post subject:

Re: Indifference, red pill, or ?

Quote:

but it might prove useful for you if I describe my own thought process.

It won't...but deadlifts might.

Author:

Resonance [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:52 pm ]

Post subject:

Re: Indifference, red pill, or ?

The Kidd!! wrote:

Quote:

but it might prove useful for you if I describe my own thought process.

It won't...but deadlifts might.

Now we talking

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oyf59-dPeXg

Author:

rant [ Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:43 am ]

Post subject:

Re: Indifference, red pill, or ?

Meraki wrote:

rant wrote:

Not sure I follow you there rant... Maybe the language barrier? Do you mean sexual fantasizing about a certain woman, or just in general?

in general

what i meant is that using sex as bait and men giving value to hot bodies it is just a negative way of percieving sex, so if you are close to the source or at home as kidd says all those things that are valuable to the people stuck in the matrix only can turn you off, not that you wil not find hot women attactive but the more stucked they are the less you want them regardless of their bodies

Author:	fufe [ Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:45 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Indifference, red pill, or ?
Lol guys I was doing my pushups this morning, literally, I suddenly thought about a girl I met and thought "What if she's manipulative like the vast majority, she didn't show anything worth" etc.. Then I realised, that your wav of thinking is INTOXICATING !

Author:

Nyph [ Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:00 am ]

Post subject:

Re: Indifference, red pill, or ?

This is my second post on these forums, and I feel I have reached the stage where I think I can give useful advice to this post. This is a response to the first post on this thread.

Meraki wrote:

Getting down to it - I've been feeling a complete lack of sexual desire/motivation to interact with new girls at all. I had two new very beautiful girls jocking me this week, (one of them super blatantly), and I just couldn't motivate myself to go out of my way at all to make anything happen with them.

A loss of desire and motivation is not indifference, it is apathy. Indifference is the loss of investment in outcomes.

Meraki wrote:

Even though I knew that if I didn't make some effort to interact with this girl that there was a good chance I would never see her again, I couldn't bring myself to do it. I just kept thinking to myself, "this girls probably a bitch who wants to sink her fangs into me and suck me dry just like all the other manipulative bitches out there do with stupid ass men." Even though I feel like I can see the matrix pretty well in that respect, and so I guess I can defend against that scenario, I just can't help but think, "why would I want to deal with a human (male or female) who just wants to manipulate others and squeeze them dry of everything they have to offer?"

Sure, nature makes women want to manipulate men, but you as long as you know what they are doing you will not be the one that gets manipulated.

Meraki wrote:

Even if she was not a evil-hearted vampire, I didn't have any evidence that she brought anything to the table other than her looks,

Do not expect women to bring things to the table, because they won't. What women bring to your table is not dependant on her, as much as it is dependant on you. You can leverage her into bringing things to the table.

Meraki wrote:

I've really been focusing on developing indifference this week. I've been doing this by asking myself over and over and over again, "would I really be ok/happy with my life if I never had sex again as long as I lived?" Each time I answer yes to myself, but I'm trying to feel out if that yes is coming from deep down in my core, or if I'm saying that just because I consciously know that's what I "should" respond. I figure that if I can respond yes to that question, truthfully and from my core, then that should be a pretty good sign that I'm indifferent.

It is your ego that is answering yes each time. You cannot make yourself change the real answer you give to that question. There is no spoon.

Meraki wrote:

So, here's where I would really love some feedback - is this negativity part of being indifferent, or is it still part of calibration (ie. red pill)? If its not part of being indifferent, then I guess its just another phase of the calibration process to go through, or ???

It is still part of calibration. If you have to ask yourself if you are indifferent, then you are not there yet.

Meraki wrote:

I don't feel like I have that motivation, and I don't think I really want it either. Seems like a big waste of energy, since these girls haven't done anything in particular to me, so why should I go out of my way to get back at them?

There is no reason to go out of your way, apart from ego.

Meraki wrote:

I guess thinking back to Marquee Value Theory - if the value they bring is their hotness, but their hotness is not valuable to me, then what would make me want to interact with them?

The most powerful reason to interact with them is to improve your skill. To learn and to master. Money and pussy will always be secondary to this.

Hope my advice helps.

Author:	The Kidd!! [ Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Indifference, red pill, or ?
...looks like Nyph might be in the running for Rookie of the Year...nah, I'm just kidding ...zogler has that hands DOWN. Seriously tho...good shit, Nyph. looks at fufe...see? This man does his push-ups!

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