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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:37 pm 
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Sniper wrote:
if he really believes in it so much than why does he go away to poor countries posing as a rich man?

If he beleives women are going gaga over his energy then (for example) why buy 500$ boots?

Because he still has inner conflicts and an ego

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:59 pm 
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Dr. Awesome wrote:
Okey, i probably was a bit harsh but I will add some more arguments for my point of view. No offense of course ;)

- Visualizations do work, this has been proven by science. They are a solid tool to change your self-image, this has worked for millions of people and many successful movie/music stars and athletes. If someone thinks they don't work for him, then there are other possibilities to change the self-image too but putting visualizations and something like "Natural Grounding" on one level is wrong. To say they have the same authority, too.

- I did NG for 8 months and was active in Rion Sillyams forum and paid for his, let me call them gently, "products". Most guys I know that started Natural Grounding did quit it and say that it doesn't work.There are a few exceptions that don't. But those exceptions mean a different meaning of "working" than Mr.Sillyams.

- Mr. Sillyams promotes NG as the magic key to success with women which is just wrong. And men fall into this trap and start to do NG. They think the lies of the "sage" are true and WASTE their time doing something that is supposed (by Rion) to make them ladies men. ALL the guys who SEEMED to be succesful with NG were succesful because they followed the concept of indifference (not being attached to the outcome) which IS NOT a part of Natural Grounding.

- There were guys who didn't get anything from Natural Grounding who did it for like 2 years and everyone told them that they just have to keep on it... Keep on something that doens't work for most of the guys and especially doesn't work as the promoter of it declares it does.

I think I already wrote my thoughts about NG somewhere but this is my correct opinion about it, written from the necessary distance from this time-waster ;)

And I deeply regret that my "NG diary" is still up in Rions forum which may give the impression to new ones that NG does work...


Yes, this is your opinion and i respect it, but it is your opinion only. Others might have other opinions. So if i were you, i would say that Natural Grounding didn't work for me and the people i know. Whether it works for others who i don't know (for learningsoul in this case) or not, i can't really know. After all you got to know that Natural Grounding doesn't work for you after you tried it yourself, so let others try it too and judge themselves, who knows may be there are exceptions who will profit more from Natural Grounding.

Another thing, with all respect, but i really don't agree with the sarcastic way you talk about Rion "Sillyams", especially if it was because of the money you paid him. I don't really know the guy and i don't have a reason to defend him, but the guy did change (my view at least) to women and to the social matrix, so i have nothing against him, in fact i am thankful for this change. Talking about people this way and spreading not positive thoughts is not right in my opinion, especially if you yourself were responsible too. I mean may be he was wrong to charge money for something that doesn't work for everyone, but on the other side and i mean no offense my friend, i think no one forced you to pay him money too. So why should we (who have nothing against Rion Williams) have to read degrading words from you about him, because of something you did yourself? I think it's a bit unfair.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:28 pm 
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I just follow some scientific principles. If a method only works (somehow) for a few who try it and not for the majority, then I don't advise this method. I then recommend methods that have helped the majority (like visualizations) and show the man who's asking that the arguments speak much more for one method than the other.

My subjective experience with NG is just one of many, many experiences of guys, like I said, the majority.

About Rion: Its not about the money I paid to him. Its about his business techniques and I don't mean it personally! Once more: He promises results that nobody ever got (according to his dubious stories, not even himself) and people fall into the trap then. I don't blame him for the first year of his business. He somehow believes in his stuff and thought the others could benefit from it too. But now after many years, he simply must see that it doesn't work as he promises it does work. As I said, the guys who SEEMED to get all the success out of it (Mr.Marcus, Kindred_essence), followed the concept of indifference and from there came all the results.

And if he sees that his stuff doesn't work as promised, he should stop making false promises. He may say "it worked for a few to gave them a different perception of women" and I wouldn't have a problem with it. But what he does is just not honest and therefore very wrong. Especially when you look at guys (me included) who fell for his false promises and wasted hours and hours during months and sometimes even years.

And I'm glad that if someone puts "natural grounding" into google, that this forum is the 6th match 8-)


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:34 pm 
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Barca, is Rion paying you to represent him or something as the sole member of the NG Defense Force? :|

You really don't know hooey-fied bullshit when you see it? I mean THINK ABOUT IT...to have more meaningful social interactions with women, the answer is to give all your money to a super beta who will instantly put it towards his next Thailand trip. Then in return, he gives you some fucking sage advice: Lock yourself in a room and watch Palmy till you cry...and if you want to play with your dick while you're at it, it's not only okay but encouraged?

You have GOT to be fucking KIDDING ME. :roll:

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:46 pm 
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Dr. Awesome wrote:
I just follow some scientific principles. If a method only works (somehow) for a few who try it and not for the majority, then I don't advise this method. I then recommend methods that have helped the majority (like visualizations) and show the man who's asking that the arguments speak much more for one method than the other.

My subjective experience with NG is just one of many, many experiences of guys, like I said, the majority.

About Rion: Its not about the money I paid to him. Its about his business techniques and I don't mean it personally! Once more: He promises results that nobody ever got (according to his dubious stories, not even himself) and people fall into the trap then. I don't blame him for the first year of his business. He somehow believes in his stuff and thought the others could benefit from it too. But now after many years, he simply must see that it doesn't work as he promises it does work. As I said, the guys who SEEMED to get all the success out of it (Mr.Marcus, Kindred_essence), followed the concept of indifference and from there came all the results.

And if he sees that his stuff doesn't work as promised, he should stop making false promises. He may say "it worked for a few to gave them a different perception of women" and I wouldn't have a problem with it. But what he does is just not honest and therefore very wrong. Especially when you look at guys (me included) who fell for his false promises and wasted hours and hours during months and sometimes even years.

And I'm glad that if someone puts "natural grounding" into google, that this forum is the 6th match 8-)



Advising and recommending is one thing, and saying that N.G. doesn't work for anyone, and describing Rion Williams as Rion Sillyams, is completely another thing. And honestly your post didn't give me the impression that you were advising or recommending. Recommending or not recommending something as a result of your experience is right to me, because this way the other person (who you are talking or recommending to) still has the chance to try that particular thing, and who knows may be that thing would fit him. But once you say that a certain thing doesn't work for anyone according to your experience only, and talk about Rion Williams sarcastically according to your experience with him only, then you are closing all doors infront of this person, because of your experience only! And in my opinion that's not right at all, let people do what they want, all we can do is advise or recommend as you said. I think it's not our right to "close doors".

Also, i don't think everyone does N.G. to get success with women, not me at least. May be some people want to do it as a form of meditation? May be others want to do it just to change their view about women? And here again i don't see that we have the right to close the door infront of them, just because we did it in the aim of having success with women, with no success in the end.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:50 pm 
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The Kidd!! wrote:
Barca, is Rion paying you to represent him or something as the sole member of the NG Defense Force? :|

You really don't know hooey-fied bullshit when you see it? I mean THINK ABOUT IT...to have more meaningful social interactions with women, the answer is to give all your money to a super beta who will instantly put it towards his next Thailand trip. Then in return, he gives you some fucking sage advice: Lock yourself in a room and watch Palmy till you cry...and if you want to play with your dick while you're at it, it's not only okay but encouraged?

You have GOT to be fucking KIDDING ME. :roll:


:), no. First, just to make it clear, i never paid, pay or will pay money for such things, including N.G.. Not because i wouldn't benifit from them, but because to a great extent i am satisfied with the way i am. However, since you can try some things free of charge (like N.G. in my case), and since there is a chance that you might benifit from it, then i see no reason why not try it, especially if you are not losing money or anything else.

Second, i think it depends on how you look at it and what you really want from it. Giving alot of money to be "coached" and "lead" by someone to succeed with women or anything else, and not really being sure if his coaching works, is in my opinion very wrong, and i would never do it. Watching Palmy until you cry (in other words having a rather shallow view on N.G.) and giving money for that is in my opinion also wrong. I see N.G. like this: Personally, i think it's good to be pure, and i want to be as pure as i can. I see sex obsession, porn, masturbation etc. as impure, and practicing them often wouldn't really help me be pure. So, and as i mentioned in recent posts, i don't want sex with all its belongings to be a priority in my life. In fact, i want it to be the last thing i think about. But since i too was affected by the social matrix, it's not that easy. The only thing that is helping me achieve this and not think about sex, is N.G.. Not to mention other positive effects like changing my view on women, or making my interactions with women extremely simple (because of not thinking about sex and not analysing their moves/words, and therefore not wanting anything from them).
So if you look at N.G. as spending alot of money to watch Palmy and cry, with no success wth women in the end, then yes, i too think it isn't right and it isn't worth it. But if you look at it as something that can help you improve and achieve things that would make you happier, as something you do free of charge (like my case), then yes, i think it is worth it, and i would be happy to do it.
That's why i disagreed with Dr.Awesome, because if he paid money for it in the aim of having success with women, this doesn't mean that everyone one would do N.G. for exactly the same reasons. I have other reasons for doing N.G., that's why i'm satisfied with it and i still do it. So let people do N.G. if they want to, we don't really know what they want from it. All we can do here is advise.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:55 pm 
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Quote:
Also, i don't think everyone does N.G. to get success with women, not me at least. May be some people want to do it as a form of meditation? May be others want to do it just to change their view about women? And here again i don't see that we have the right to close the door infront of them, just because we did it in the aim of having success with women, with no success in the end.


See? That right there is where you're fuckin' UP.

That's great that NG is a meditation tool for you...seriously that's awesome. Unfortunately, that is not what Rion says it is FOR. Therefore, the good doctor's position is valid and yours is not.

It would be fine and dandy if NG was marketed as a a type of meditation...but it ISN'T. You put your own spin on it and now you are defending it as a form of meditation, while we are bashing it wholesale: for not working as advertised. :roll:

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:38 pm 
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The Kidd!! wrote:
It would be fine and dandy if NG was marketed as a a type of meditation...but it ISN'T. You put your own spin on it and now you are defending it as a form of meditation, while we are bashing it wholesale: for not working as advertised. :roll:


This....

Ng is not marketed as 'meditation' but as something that will turn you into a women magnet.
And as Dr. Awesome said:
after Rion has been in this business for a few years and saw that the majority of people did not turn into women magnets with his programs (as he promised ) he should at least change the marketing pages and strategy.

Less then a year ago he did the 'beyond inner game' video (which is a promotion video for his products) and over there he says soemthing like:
'How about if all you had to do is talk to new women and they would want to keep seeing you and things would get physical almost all the time' :|

that's a really bold claim when almost non of his students are having that kind of thing.

Think about Zan (for example)- Zan never says on his marketing pages that once you apply his stuff women will be all over you. He says that with his stuff you will become a better man and have more choices with women.

see the difference?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:47 pm 
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Sniper wrote:
The Kidd!! wrote:
It would be fine and dandy if NG was marketed as a a type of meditation...but it ISN'T. You put your own spin on it and now you are defending it as a form of meditation, while we are bashing it wholesale: for not working as advertised. :roll:


This....

Ng is not marketed as 'meditation' but as something that will turn you into a women magnet.
And as Dr. Awesome said:
after Rion has been in this business for a few years and saw that the majority of people did not turn into women magnets with his programs (as he promised ) he should at least change the marketing pages and strategy.

Less then a year ago he did the 'beyond inner game' video (which is a promotion video for his products) and over there he says soemthing like:
'How about if all you had to do is talk to new women and they would want to keep seeing you and things would get physical almost all the time' :|

that's a really bold claim when almost non of his students are having that kind of thing.

Think about Zan (for example)- Zan never says on his marketing pages that once you apply his stuff women will be all over you. He says that with his stuff you will become a better man and have more choices with women.

see the difference?



i see your point Sniper, and i agree with you 100%. By the way i'm not defending Rion Williams, and i'm not saying that he's right in his marketing. In fact i think that he exaggerates alot. But he did change some things in me (without me paying him a cent), and for that i'm thankful. If you have something against him, ok it is your opinion, but i think this doesn't mean that you degrade his image infront of all, even the ones who don't know him. Simply because those people could benefit from him too, just like i did. Although i myself am thankful for him, i wouldn't try to make his image perfect, i know there are lots of negative points about him. But since some people have good experiences with him, and since other people have bad experiences, it wouldn't be fair to make him a hero or a loser, it would be best to describe him in a neutral way.

We don't really know what everyone wants from N.G.. I for one didn't do N.G. to have success with women, and i read the words (shakti meditation) lots of times whether in his book or posts. As you can see the marketing and claims of having success with women didn't affect me. It is possible that there are other people who would see N.G. exactly the same way i did and benefit from it in form of meditation etc.. Plus, you said yourself that N.G. didn't work for the majority, which means there is a minority for which N.G. worked (regardless of the reasons), so why degrade Rion's image and stop those new people from a possible benefit? That's all i'm saying.

Again, as for Rion Williams and the way he markets his stuff, i completely disagree with it and i think it's wrong. But people can still benefit from him, without really having to pay.

By the way, the fact that learningsoul asked us for N.G. resources, makes me sure that he wouldn't pay to do N.G.. Since he's not paying and not losing anything, i don't see why we stop him. If he was willing to pay, believe me i would be the first one to advise him not to.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:56 pm 
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Barca wrote:
By the way, the fact that learningsoul asked us for N.G. resources, makes me sure that he wouldn't pay to do N.G.. Since he's not paying and not losing anything, i don't see why we stop him. If he was willing to pay, believe me i would be the first one to advise him not to.


Ok. when I bought Rion's programs Ng was not free.
Only some time ago he made it 'free to the public'. So I guess learningsoul has to ask himself what he is expecting to gain from it....


Quote:
Plus, you said yourself that N.G. didn't work for the majority, which means there is a minority for which N.G. worked (regardless of the reasons)


I only know two people who claimed to have had the results Rion was talking about ( being a women magnet).
But they both used other things and they were not bad with women before they came to Rion.

Marcus for example was a student of Brent
and the other one was already a top PUA (Kindered).

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 3:26 am 
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Quote:
One of them was already a top PUA (Kindered).


Where did you hear that Sniper I'm curious where you got that from did he admit this in the RELM forum somewhere ???

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 3:43 am 
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Way of a Natural wrote:
Quote:
One of them was already a top PUA (Kindered).


Where did you hear that Sniper I'm curious where you got that from did he admit this in the RELM forum somewhere ???


Yes he mentioned it on realm, here is a part of his post (taken from realm):

Quote:
......Rewind to November 2007; 'The Game' in hand, I felt destined for pick-up success. Having had my heart completely shattered in a relationship where I allowed myself ot be th doormat, I was determined to never have this happen again. EVER, EVER....N..E...V...E...R!

Mystery method - boom. I learnt the structure of it in one sitting of about an hour. That evening, I went out on my first 'lone sarge'. Kiss close. Nice. This shit works.

I would run mystery method in clubs, and just like magic, I would get kisses, and numbers [number closes] and occasionally engage in the odd sexual adventure.

I learnt pick-up in between my medical studies. Monday - Friday, library time. Weekend, Sarge on.

With a silly hat and some props, I would fascinate the ladies, and they ADORED me. Guys would look at me in awe, women would look upon me in delight. I was truly a champ. Photographs, demonstrating my new prowess, would pop up on my facebook. I was the fuckin' man........

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 3:55 am 
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Sniper wrote:
Way of a Natural wrote:
Quote:
One of them was already a top PUA (Kindered).


Where did you hear that Sniper I'm curious where you got that from did he admit this in the RELM forum somewhere ???


Yes he mentioned it on realm, here is a part of his post (taken from realm):

Quote:
......Rewind to November 2007; 'The Game' in hand, I felt destined for pick-up success. Having had my heart completely shattered in a relationship where I allowed myself ot be th doormat, I was determined to never have this happen again. EVER, EVER....N..E...V...E...R!

Mystery method - boom. I learnt the structure of it in one sitting of about an hour. That evening, I went out on my first 'lone sarge'. Kiss close. Nice. This shit works.

I would run mystery method in clubs, and just like magic, I would get kisses, and numbers [number closes] and occasionally engage in the odd sexual adventure.

I learnt pick-up in between my medical studies. Monday - Friday, library time. Weekend, Sarge on.

With a silly hat and some props, I would fascinate the ladies, and they ADORED me. Guys would look at me in awe, women would look upon me in delight. I was truly a champ. Photographs, demonstrating my new prowess, would pop up on my facebook. I was the fuckin' man........



Damn Sniper you found this shit fast, but now that I see it I do remember reading that somewhere on RELM before, he did admit this.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:40 pm 
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He also used Nathaniel Brandens stuff as well as indifference and I think we scared learningsoul off.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:05 pm 
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you know, I'm not even sure Kindered got the same success as Marcus. He was always talking like he was one of Marcus's girlfriends or something :mrgreen:

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