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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:30 pm 
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For starters, watch Forks Over Knives. You can easily find and watch it for free (for example, here: http://www.movie2k.to/movie-950706-Fork ... nives.html). It is a documentary that could literally transform your life (allthough I don't like big words).

Forks Over Knives is an excellent movie on many fronts, however, it does not give specific recommendations to what exactly is a healthy plant-based diet nor does it go into the details of what exactly someone should eat. There is much more to health then just a "vegan" diet and being vegan is not actually required.

So, my recommendation to you would be to spend some time reading these:
http://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewt ... =22&t=7828
http://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewt ... 22&t=13282
http://www.drmcdougall.com/newsletter/archive.html

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:49 am 
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Whilst waching this documentary, I actually remembered an audiobook I listened in the past, The China Study.
Seems like one of the M.D. that appear on the documentary is actually a co-author of that book I mentioned.

I'm doing some education and rather embracing long lasting, long term solution over temporarly fixes like diets. Yet another thing I'm struggling with, due to many missconceptions, and a myriad of contradictory information I have about nutrition. Nice tip you give about filtering from a well documented medical source "proofed" (sorry for my elongation of the correct term).

Good info zogler.
I might have some questions about this, will further use PM to do that. Really interested.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:12 pm 
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zogler, I'll answer your pm here.

First, Thanks for the personal recommendation :lol:

I have watched the two documentaries (Forks Over Knives AFTER In Search Of The Perfect Human Diet), and it was no news for me on what I gathered before watching these (see our prior discussion here : Healthy Eating).

Also, found this on the journey :

Imdb list called Documentales : http://www.imdb.com/list/49Gmk3DoSGw/
-> 40+ documentaries on food, health, agriculture ... -> TOO FUCKING MUCH SHIT on a topic that shouldn't be complicated. (I DO intend to watch the last one on Bukowski though ;))

I once heard something that I feel is related :
http://sharanam.tumblr.com/post/4638450 ... nk-you-are
Quote:
“If I say that God is irrelevant, you think you are a believer in God and I am an atheist.

But get this and get this straight. An atheist is still interested in God. He may say that he doesn’t believe in God, but the desire to free others from their belief in God—it becomes a mission to free you from your belief in God and you become some other kind of missionary. So both are in the same boat. ”


U.G. Krishnamurti (I transcribed this from the linked video should you want to watch/listen yourself…)

NOW

My inputs on these fascinating topics :

From your pm :
Quote:
I suggest you watch Forks Over Knives with an open mind.
... No comment ... (... too late ...)
Quote:
I am offering nothing more than the truth.
^ See bolded above ^
Quote:
I see you all here as my brothers and I want you healthy and long-lived.
Be sure it's vice-versa, or I wouldn't have bothered to answer.

And by the way, I love your sig. 8-)


On topic :

From link below : Masanobu Fukuoka died in 2008 at a ripe old age
From wiki : Masanobu Fukuoka died on 16 August 2008 at the age of 95, after a period of confinement in bed and in a wheelchair.
From OneStrawRevolution : He continued to farm and give lectures until just a few years before his death. He had been in poor health since October 2007, and in August of 2008 he asked his doctor to discontinue treatment. He passed away peacefully at his home a week later during the Obon festival.
zogler wrote:
Last but not least, allthough I generally don't judge a book by its cover, physicians and dieticians ought to lead by example by maintaining a healthy body weight (which is a reflection of their lifestyle and the result of practicing what they recommend).
That's living by example. 8-)

SEE THIS LINK with an open mind : http://www.helladelicious.com/diy/2010/ ... u-fukuoka/

Some quotes :
Quote:
“A Natural Diet Lies Right At Ones Feet”. -p133
Quote:
People first draw away from the empty diet which is the source of countless diseases. Next, becoming disenchanted with the scientific diet, which merely attempts to maintain biological life, many proceed to a diet of principle. Finally, transcending this, one arrives at the non-discriminating diet of the natural person. -p142
Quote:
Food and farming are the front and back of one body.

Unless people become natural people, there can be neither farming nor natural food. In one of the huts on the mountain I left the words, “Right Food, Right Action, Right Awareness” inscribed on a pinewood plaque above the fireplace. The three cannot be separated from one another. If one is missing, none can be realized. If one is realized, all are realized.... -p147
And :
http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/ ... bu_Fukuoka
Quote:
“I do not particularly like the word 'work.' Human beings are the only animals who have to work, and I think that is the most ridiculous thing in the world. Other animals make their livings by living, but people work like crazy, thinking that they have to in order to stay alive. The bigger the job, the greater the challenge, the more wonderful they think it is. It would be good to give up that way of thinking and live an easy, comfortable life with plenty of free time. I think that the way animals live in the tropics, stepping outside in the morning and evening to see if there is something to eat, and taking a long nap in the afternoon, must be a wonderful life. For human beings, a life of such simplicity would be possible if one worked to produce directly his daily necessities. In such a life, work is not work as people generally think of it, but simply doing what needs to be done.”
― Masanobu Fukuoka, The One-Straw Revolution

I'll finish with stealin' Grinus's words :
Quote:
I in no way state the film is correct, or to be followed.. Simply another angle on a complex topic.

With both, take what you find useful to YOU, discard the rest. Feel free to discuss with others, discussions are aided by adding viewpoints, rather than limiting them.
.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:48 pm 
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Also, as I quoted him, I would like to present you to UG Krishnamurti's view of diet :

Wiki :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U._G._Krishnamurti#Health
Quote:
Health

Krishnamurti was known for his unusual health and diet preferences.[14] Carrying with him a "portable kitchen" in a tiny suitcase throughout his travels, he consumed a great deal of salt and cream, and stated "no meal should take longer than a few minutes to prepare." Throughout his life, Krishnamurti never saw a doctor or took medication, believing the body would take care of itself. Often complimented for good looks in his old age, Krishnamurti would respond "that's because I don't eat health food, I don't take vitamins, and I don't exercise!"[14]
To read : [14] : http://www.travelswithug.com/resources/UGCookbook.pdf small book with detailed view on first pages followed by recipes.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:25 pm 
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Goldenboy,

Never stated it was a personal recommendation. If you read the first sentence of my pm carefully, you will understand why your profile fitted my recommendation. Besides, the pm preceded the thread I opened, since I later decided to post my recommendation for anyone interested. The forum has a total of 262 members.

Ironically enough, you responded to a pm (personal message) publicly. No comments..

I agree that it is a topic that shouldn't be overcomplicated, just like the topic of this whole forum - women (allthough, as The Kidd has stated, his mindset isn't about women at all. They are merely a pleasant side-effect and not the goal. He only uses them to draw men and help them swallow this bitter pill.). That doesn't mean it is not an important issue, if not the most important. Much more important than "how to get chicks". The state of humanity would be so much better, if we were more interested in our health and longevity (and many other crucial issues) and less interested in manipulating or "conquering" the opposite sex.

Your response is full of quotes irrelevant to the subject. Masanobu Fukuoka was a pioneer of organic farming and a philosopher but he had nothing to do with diet and nutrition. Many philosophers tend to theorize in a grand way.

There are many ideas out there and while there is always room for differing of opinions and intellectual debate, the field is tainted by industry and political influence.

Nutrition is a hard science and not decided by marketing and advertising, individual belief or popular opinion.

My recommendations are based on my interpretation of the data and the overwhelming scientific body of evidence and are actually in line with, or close to, the recommendations by most all national and international health organizations. (The least influenced by industry these groups are, the closer their recommendations are to the healthiest).

I am not a fan of debating these issues, since most of the times I am the only one who brings to the discussion scientific evidence to support his views.

Common sense: Cow's milk is designed by nature to nourish baby cattle. We are the only mammals that drink another mammal's secretions. The only ones to have the unmitigated audacity to do this. And we still consume it after weaning. And, as you well know, all dairy products are produced by milk.

I suggest you take a look at Yoshikatsu Kawaguchi as an alternative to Fukuoka.

P.S. In light of your new post:

Testimonials are great, but they should be supported by science because the internet is full of people offering testimonials on everything, including pure quackery.

Stories about people who have experienced health improvement due to eating a particular food or diet are interesting, but are in no way a substitute for science.
They can be very misleading, and they have limited value in a scientific discussion about diet, health, and medicine.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:57 pm 
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zogler wrote:
Goldenboy,

Never stated it was a personal recommendation. If you read the first sentence of my pm carefully, you will understand why your profile fitted my recommendation. Besides, the pm preceded the thread I opened, since I later decided to post my recommendation for anyone interested. The forum has a total of 262 members.


Ironically enough, you responded to a pm (personal message) publicly. No comments..
You seem to apply some connotations to my words I didn't intent to.

The 'personal recommendation' was meant to imply you chose to pm me (as in PERSONAL/private message -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_message) to provide some information (hence personal, even if you could have sent this to other members who fit a profile).

It was in no way implying that you thought I needed it, or that you did it only for me.
Just, you did it ... and I thank you for that, much to learn on the McDougall forum :geek:


I chose to answer here, simply because I'm lazy and didn't want to make you one pm saying thanks and one message here.
zogler wrote:
I agree that it is a topic that shouldn't be overcomplicated, just like the topic of this whole forum - women
I agree, I will make a post on 'simplicities' in the next weeks or days I think.
zogler wrote:
That doesn't mean it is not an important issue, if not the most important.
This is where a part of me screams ... where the other part nods.
zogler wrote:
Much more important than "how to get chicks".
THIS.
I hope nobody on this forum denies that at least ...
zogler wrote:
The state of humanity would be so much better, if we were more interested in our health and longevity (and many other crucial issues) and less interested in manipulating or "conquering" the opposite sex.
This I don't agree.
'Everyone' only think for themselves, and manipulates and coquer EVERYONE.
Quote:
The basis of relationships is: "What do I get out of the relationship?" That is the basis of all human relationships. As long as I can get what I want the relationships last.
zogler wrote:
Your response is full of quotes irrelevant to the subject
Only because the thread is a diet thread shouldn't mean we should only speak of it (just as when 'women's topics' come up, the Old Bulls see the thinking behind it and decide which answer is appropriate, whether deciphering the situation, argumenting, OR slapping the student, ignoring it, showing another way of looking at the problem, or perhaps even showing the problem was not about women in the first place, just as your relationship in regards to diet tells me something about you, that I already mentioned in the first thread related to healthy eating.
zogler wrote:
Masanobu Fukuoka was a pioneer of organic farming and a philosopher but he had nothing to do with diet and nutrition. Many philosophers tend to theorize in a grand way.
Quote:
To the casual observer I may seem either humble or arrogant. I tell the young people up in my orchard again and again not to try to imitate me, and it really angers me if there is someone who does not take this advice to heart. I ask, instead, that they simply live in nature and apply themselves to their daily work. No, there is nothing special about me, but what I have glimpsed is vastly important.
zogler wrote:
the field is tainted by industry and political influence
And yet you discard two examples of people that lived up to 95 and 88 IN PERFECT HEALTH weeks or monthes before their death, simply because they are not 'EXPERT' on this field.
And these two discarded 'industry and political influence' also ...
zogler wrote:
Nutrition is a hard science and not decided by marketing and advertising, individual belief or popular opinion.
This is where I agree to disagree with you.
I might be the one on the losing end (as you claim to have the truth with you), but I don't feel like being in the wrong (and my body proves it to me).
I have this quote in mind from Hippocrates "One man's food (or meat depending on the quotes) is another man's poison."
How can science decide what is best for EVERYONE IN THE WORLD ?

Hence, for me, the quote : “A Natural Diet Lies Right At Ones Feet”. -p133
zogler wrote:
I suggest you take a look at Yoshikatsu Kawaguchi as an alternative to Fukuoka.
As in the football goalkeeper who was in Porthsmouth ?


-------

You may think I disagree with you on everything, whereas my actual diet is organic vegetarian if I buy / cook food for myself (I eat whatever (meat, fish, eggs, dairy products) when invited - except personal 'tastes' I don't like like oisters, seafood ...), based on whole grains when I cook, fresh vegetables, fruits (especially when they will be coming from my land).

The point I'm saying is that I've evolved to that point not by forcing myself into a 'If I eat it I'll be healthy' ... just as time passed working on farms, this is what I felt I needed to eat at this point.

Hence the quotes :
Quote:
Human life is not sustained by its own power. Nature gives birth to human beings and keeps them alive. This is the relation in which people stand to nature. Food is a gift of heaven. People do not create foods from nature; heaven bestows them.

Food is food and food is not food. It is a part of man and is apart from man.

When food, the body, the heart, and the mind become perfectly united with nature, a natural diet becomes possible. The body as it is, following its own instinct, eating if something tastes good, abstaining if it does not, is free.

It is impossible to prescribe rules and proportions for a natural diet.* This diet defines itself according to the local environment, and the various needs and the bodily constitution of each person.
Quote:
The prime consideration is for a person to develop the sensitivity to allow the body to choose food by itself. Thinking only about the foods themselves and leaving the spirit aside, is like making visits to the temple, reading the sutras, and leaving Buddha on the outside. Rather than studying philosophical theory to reach an understanding of food, it is better to arrive at a theory from within one’s daily diet. -p146
Focusing only on diet is not the way to go in my opinion, hence my focus on other things than diet (like philosophy, environment) in a diet thread.

That said, be sure I appreciate you input and will read the mcdougall's forum thouroughly, with my most open mind possible.

Time to eat.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:16 pm 
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GoldenBoy wrote:
And yet you discard two examples of people that lived up to 95 and 88 IN PERFECT HEALTH weeks or monthes before their death
1. From wiki: Krishnamurti died of pancreatic cancer on February 17, 1986, at the age of 90.
From wiki : Masanobu Fukuoka died on 16 August 2008 at the age of 95, after a period of confinement in bed and in a wheelchair.
From OneStrawRevolution : He continued to farm and give lectures until just a few years before his death. He had been in poor health since October 2007, and in August of 2008 he asked his doctor to discontinue treatment. He passed away peacefully at his home a week later during the Obon festival.

What a contradiction between the last two sentences. How can someone pass away peacefully, if he is in poor health for a prolonged period (confinement in bed, wheelchair)?

2. Even if they had died quickly and quietly when they had reached the end of the normal lifespan—worn out through their natural processes of aging:

In any population, there will be a certain number of people who do not demonstrate the typical patterns seen in the vast majority. For chronic diseases, there are two major types: 1) people with many chronic disease risk factors, who nonetheless live a healthy and long life; 2) people with no or few chronic disease risk factors, who nonetheless develop chronic disease and/or die from complications at a young age.

These people undeniably exist, but they are rare. The vast majority of chronic disease can be traced back to the common risk factors, and can be prevented by eliminating these risks.

Certainly everyone has to die of something, but death does not need to be slow, painful, or premature. Most chronic diseases do not result in sudden death. Rather, they are likely to cause people to become progressively ill and debilitated, especially if their illness is not managed correctly. Death is inevitable, but a life of protracted ill-health is not. Chronic disease prevention and control helps people to live longer and healthier lives.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:46 pm 
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zogler wrote:
He had been in poor health since October 2007, and in August of 2008 he asked his doctor to discontinue treatment.

He passed away peacefully at his home a week later during the Obon festival.

What a contradiction between the last two sentences.

How can someone pass away peacefully, if he is in poor health for a prolonged period (confinement in bed, wheelchair)?
Very easily.

No contradiction.

He had come to peace with his condition and his impending expiry.

He had accepted it.. Asking his doctor to discontinue treatment is a signpost to this. Expiring a week later is another signpost.. He knew what was coming.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:52 am 
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And I'm talking of UG Krishnamurti, not Krishnamurti, which I 'know' nothing about health-relevant.

For Fukuoka, I'm really wondering why 70 years of good health (he was in poor health -due to too much work, confinement ... - before 25, before starting farming), and JUST 10 monthes of health failing - at 94 years old, not 60 ... - would not be considered a 'good deal'.

That said, I agree with your points on testimonials not being accurate, on exceptions to rules, ... I'm just presenting 'cases' that influenced MY view on this.

And in case it's not obvious, Grinus strongly implies (imo at least) that there is another factor to health, and that is being peaceful, accepting what IS, peace of mind.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:16 am 
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GoldenBoy wrote:
And I'm talking of UG Krishnamurti, not Krishnamurti, which I 'know' nothing about health-relevant.

For Fukuoka, I'm really wondering why 70 years of good health (he was in poor health -due to too much work, confinement ... - before 25, before starting farming), and JUST 10 monthes of health failing - at 94 years old, not 60 ... - would not be considered a 'good deal'.

That said, I agree with your points on testimonials not being accurate, on exceptions to rules, ... I'm just presenting 'cases' that influenced MY view on this.

And in case it's not obvious, Grinus strongly implies (imo at least) that there is another factor to health, and that is being peaceful, accepting what IS, peace of mind.
Desambiguation

Jiddu Krishnamurti:
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiddu_Krishnamurti

U.G. Krishnamurti:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U._G._Krishnamurti

@later paragraph:

Yep, no fighting against what is.
According to Byron Katie: Accepting what is, and loving what is.

In this case, cancer is "somewhat" out of the grasp of the egoic mind: You see how is viewed form the ego perspective; struggle with cancer, battle with cancer and in some cases win over this.
So is not full resignation also but a pure acceptance, so no fight needed but a golden opportunity for full change of paradigm. Is a wake up call form the universe.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:59 pm 
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Allthough I question the reliability of the source (http://www.travelswithug.com/resources/UGCookbook.pdf), a few comments on U.G:

While U.G.'s diet was far from optimal (or even healthy), it was also far from the Western pattern diet. No meat and no processed junk foods (apart from oil, cream, yoghurt and cheese) are included in his recipes (and therefore in his diet).

Whether he was aware of it or not, he was practicing caloric restriction, although not in the right way (which is demonstrated by his far from lean body, although fairly thin). Calorie Restriction with Optimal Nutrition (or without malnutrition) is the only known proven way to extend lifespan in every animal ever tested going back over 70 years.

He was also a fan of simplicity over variety, with which I agree: Variety vs Simplicity: The Key To Success

Maybe you have missed it, but he said "“I’m not recommending this diet to you,” and "U.G. gives no advice at all".

On chronic diseases:
One should decide he is going to leave and really believe it. If you believe you will die, you will die. But that is not enough. We certainly are psychosomatic entities (and medicine therapies should also be psychosomatic), but diet is the cornerstone of a healthy lifestyle (inarguably).

More often than not we tend to prettify things, yet if we look beneath the surface a different reality may arise. Words could just serve as distractions. Actions are more accurate speak louder than words and communicate much more. I like to judge people by their actions and the results of their actions and not (just) their words.

When you have a chronic disease, you suffer from its symptoms. Far from something I would call peaceful. You can discontinue treatment in order to limit the period of suffering, but this procedure is not peaceful (even though you can certainly make peace with the fact you are going to "leave our world" soon).

Deep inside, most of the people who suffer from chronic conditions wish they lived up to their full potential and healthy all the way, if they enjoy life. It is human nature. If you enjoy life, it is never late enough to pass away. Having said all of the previous, I will quote Yoda:

“Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them do not. Miss them do not. Attachment leads to jealously. The shadow of greed, that is.”

According to my opinion, death is not the end and birth is not the beginning. Time is relative to the observer, it is not constant. While we inhabit our bodies, it is a useful measurement as it seems finite, limited. But what dies is our body - perishable matter. Our spirit leaves the body, like we leave a damaged car, since it is not anymore the functional, useful vehicle it used to be. Our spirit continues its never ending journey. Hence, birth and death can be seen as just points on a continuum - not the beginning and the end. This discussion belongs to metaphysics and goes beyond the limits of this forum (if there are such limits), but I would be happy to open a thread on this topic, if any members are interested.

If the goal is to find out what we can get away with, than that is another topic. We could probably survive on cardboard, tobacco, alcohol, drugs etc. I will use a car analogy:

So you’re driving your car, and the needle on the gas gauge reads empty, and you pull into the gas station. But instead of pulling up to the gasoline pump, you pull up to the diesel pump. Well, diesel is an oily fuel that doesn’t burn clean in a V8 engine. So, if you fill your gas tank up with diesel fuel, you’re going to see black smoke coming out of the exhaust, and the engine is going to sputter and cough and grind to a stop.As soon as you put in a nice, lean, clean plant-based fuel, the body gets leaner, those arteries open up, the blood pressure comes down, the insulin receptors clear up so the diabetes goes away.

But, if the good health and longevity is the goal, then we have to look to those who have the longest life and the best health. I will continue in my next post.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:46 pm 
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I knew I had to answer you in the first place :mrgreen: .

This thread gets better and better.

Waiting for your new post :ugeek:

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:16 pm 
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On Raw Food diet:
Bronchichal asthma gone in week
Eczema healed in 4-5 weeks
Allergies huge relief in few days days, got better in weeks, healing would probably take few months, not sure.
And I've read tons of experiences, which you may not regard as beliavable.. But the above is my own experience - It's just hard to maintain a in the beginning little expensive, as you buy lots of stuffs.
Don't know about longterm effects, didn't ever last more than 2 months on raw food, tho. But green juices alone are more nutritious than anything I can think of :lol:
What's discutable is only B12, in my opinion.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:42 pm 
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If anyone interested, I have the books related to this topic, mainly format is (pdf, epub)
I didn't find the McDougall '95 for Maximum Weight Loss version though.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:24 pm 
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Long-lived populations include the Okinawans in Japan (more centenarians per capita than anywhere else in the world), the Tarahumara Indians in the Sierra Madre mountains of Mexico, the native Hawaiians, the Papua New Guineans, the Sardinians of Italy, the Greek Orthodox Monks, the Greeks of Crete. These were the longest-lived, healthiest populations ever. Their diet was plant-based (starch-based specifically) and they lived active lifes.

A great video on Okinawa: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=to9rhIwWJg0

More sources:
http://www.divineonraw.com/calorie-dens ... -long.html
http://healthylongevity.blogspot.gr/201 ... .html#more

Remember, seek evidence, not opinions and/or claims.

http://www.pubmed.com is your friend :)

A very interesting interview that should be required reading: http://doctorklaper.com/Doctor-Klaper-I ... w-2011.pdf
fufe wrote:
On Raw Food diet:
Bronchichal asthma gone in week
Eczema healed in 4-5 weeks
Allergies huge relief in few days days, got better in weeks, healing would probably take few months, not sure.
And I've read tons of experiences, which you may not regard as beliavable.. But the above is my own experience - It's just hard to maintain a in the beginning little expensive, as you buy lots of stuffs.
Don't know about longterm effects, didn't ever last more than 2 months on raw food, tho. But green juices alone are more nutritious than anything I can think of :lol:
What's discutable is only B12, in my opinion.
On raw food: http://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5725

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:13 pm 
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Enzyme argument is absolute bullshit, that's true.
I have no scientific argument why it works the way it works, at all, I don't reguire it, experience has been enough
Also through experience I am 100% sure, that milk and wheat (most probably the proteins casein and gluten) are what causes my allergies, asthma, eczema, etcetera.. My theory anyway has been that my immune system overreacts to these proteins, but that is just unscientific theory so disregard it
Diet with legumes, rice + raw food may work. Did not try that yet, but sounds intriguing

Btw, the caloric sestriction is something I got interested in long time ago too. And I get the gut feeling it may be about right. :lol:

On the Okinawans diet, from the link you provided.
Quote:
Notes: Soy was not the main bean, they ate a lot of other beans. Meat, eggs, dairy almost unheard of – they have 80% less osteoporosis than we here in the US.
How interesting. I got pretty much convinced from various sources over time that dairy (AND WHITE SUGAR) is the main culprit in osteoporosis.

I also have experience with getting rid of common cold by not eating for about 36 hours, stopped eating as soon as I got sneezing and runny nose. Did it this way 2 times.


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