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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 12:13 pm 
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Ripping down fence with neighbour, Showerthoughts

I often see quoted that men are the gatekeepers of commitment.

My brain often re-writes this as : Men are the gatekeepers of value

For value, you can also read resources as they hold value: Leadership, emotions, stability, instability, money, time, people, skills, housing, food, connections, fun etc etc etc

Commitment is stability to the provision of the value, I could also argue that it is an exchange in most cases, I'll give you access to the value and you give me x.

It is not commitment per se that the women are after.. It is the value and continued access to it.

If there are is no value behind it, does the commitment have any value?

If there is value and it is given without commitment, is commitment then required?

Men are the gatekeepers of value


The people who desire access to the value have a variety of paths to follow to gain access. The people with the value also have a variety of paths to benefit from that value, or not as the case may be.

I could also go down the route of, is it men who seek commitment rather than women, and they use their value to extract commitment from women in return (think childrearing and paternity).

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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 12:47 pm 
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Hyaku paasento

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPQ7S3mnAtU

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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 2:31 pm 
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Jared wrote: *


[ img ]

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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 7:48 pm 
Are Women capable of valuing a mans values in the way that a man expects to be valued?


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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 11:17 pm 
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Midas wrote: *
Are Women capable of valuing a mans values in the way that a man expects to be valued?
Seems like another *what* moment. Have you tried answering that question yourself?

She will value things in the way she values them

She will also telegraph this value of value to the male in question, if he is paying attention

What is the saying.. oh yes, pick from those who pick you

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 1:53 am 
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Peregrinus, this topic reminds me of a YouTube video you posted a while ago. The person in the video talks about an essay, or set of rules, someone wrote about female values.

It went something like...any past value given to a woman will not guarantee future return.

I tried to search for it, but didn’t know...found it! :lol:

Here it is: Briffauts Law

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 8:20 am 
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TheDude wrote: *
I tried to search for it, but didn’t know...found it! :lol:

Here it is: Briffauts Law
Yes, very much so.

and your post in that thread: http://www.naturalfreedom.info/viewtopi ... 621#p39621

I do wonder if the commitment part is to try and get around or nullify briffaults law (simplifying vastly), through the generations. I strongly lean towards marriage amongst other things being partly to address this (and the 80/20 rule). That approach seems deeply flawed though, taking things like briffault and the transitory nature of some value points into account.

A spiders web

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In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 10:15 am 
TheDude wrote: *
Peregrinus, this topic reminds me of a YouTube video you posted a while ago. The person in the video talks about an essay, or set of rules, someone wrote about female values.

It went something like...any past value given to a woman will not guarantee future return.

I tried to search for it, but didn’t know...found it! :lol:

Here it is: Briffauts Law
I bet nobody read the book : )

'The Mothers: The Matriarchal Theory of Social Origins' by Robert Briffault
https://archive.org/details/TheMothersT ... ginsImages


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 10:31 am 
peregrinus wrote: *
Midas wrote: *
Are Women capable of valuing a mans values in the way that a man expects to be valued?
Seems like another *what* moment. Have you tried answering that question yourself?

She will value things in the way she values them

She will also telegraph this value of value to the male in question, if he is paying attention

What is the saying.. oh yes, pick from those who pick you
peregrinus wrote:
Have you tried answering that question yourself?
They are not capable valuing a mans values.
They dont know what value means.
The values you stated above are mans values.
peregrinus wrote:
She will value things in the way she values them
This only from moment to moment.

2 values are important for her:
- what others value, especially other girls
- primitive (dark) feelings
peregrinus wrote:
She will also telegraph this value of value to the male in question, if he is paying attention
Can you give an example?

I would say we man are almost blind to it because when they are attracted they reflect the thing that they see back to you and thats the thing you already got or you dont want
peregrinus wrote:
What is the saying.. oh yes, pick from those who pick you
1) For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.
2) An interaction must proceed so that 1) occurs
3) pick and select ; )


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 12:11 pm 
peregrinus wrote: *
TheDude wrote: *
I tried to search for it, but didn’t know...found it! :lol:

Here it is: Briffauts Law
Yes, very much so.

and your post in that thread: http://www.naturalfreedom.info/viewtopi ... 621#p39621

I do wonder if the commitment part is to try and get around or nullify briffaults law (simplifying vastly), through the generations. I strongly lean towards marriage amongst other things being partly to address this (and the 80/20 rule). That approach seems deeply flawed though, taking things like briffault and the transitory nature of some value points into account.

A spiders web

Men are commitment phobic.
Woman are sex phobic

at the same time these are their achilles' heel


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 12:25 pm 
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Midas wrote: *

Woman are sex phobic

What


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 12:35 pm 
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fufe wrote: *
Midas wrote: *

Woman are sex phobic

What
“It is I, Aku Aku! My duty is to protect you.”

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 12:54 pm 
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Midas wrote: *
peregrinus wrote:
She will also telegraph this value of value to the male in question, if he is paying attention
Can you give an example?

I would say we man are almost blind to it because when they are attracted they reflect the thing that they see back to you and thats the thing you already got or you dont want
I do believe you gave an example answering your own question..

[does a little dance, spins in place, chants "Aku Aku" 3 times and waits]

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In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 12:06 pm 
fufe wrote: *
Midas wrote: *

Woman are sex phobic

What
Fufe my friend, i dont know of any man who wants to be emotionaly abused. At the same time man are the biggest romantics. So its an open invitation for woman.

I dont know of any woman who wants to be sexualy abused. At the same time they are the biggest sexuals. So its an open invitation for man.

I had a post where this is explained.

Tie-Up Theory (part 1) by Pier Luigi Sacco and Lorenza Lucchi Basili
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4531


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 4:50 pm 
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Midas wrote: *

Fufe my friend, i dont know of any man who wants to be emotionaly abused. At the same time man are the biggest romantics. So its an open invitation for woman.

I dont know of any woman who wants to be sexualy abused. At the same time they are the biggest sexuals. So its an open invitation for man.

I had a post where this is explained.

Tie-Up Theory (part 1) by Pier Luigi Sacco and Lorenza Lucchi Basili
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4531
You said sex phobic, now women are biggest sexuals
I'm going to look at the links in the thread


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 10:39 pm 
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fufe wrote: *
You said sex phobic, now women are biggest sexuals
I would say slightly confusing and puzzling..

-

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In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 2:58 am 
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peregrinus wrote: *
TheDude wrote: *
I tried to search for it, but didn’t know...found it! :lol:

Here it is: Briffauts Law
Yes, very much so.

and your post in that thread: http://www.naturalfreedom.info/viewtopi ... 621#p39621

I do wonder if the commitment part is to try and get around or nullify briffaults law (simplifying vastly), through the generations. I strongly lean towards marriage amongst other things being partly to address this (and the 80/20 rule). That approach seems deeply flawed though, taking things like briffault and the transitory nature of some value points into account.

A spiders web
Perhaps it's simplicity lies in that it's a move that is acted out in the moment with no regard to the future. Are you then referring to commitment as a reverse Briffault's Law? As in a way to associate with a male where the male provides the value without the condition of receiving anything in return?

It could work, although I've always viewed their drive for commitment as a way to lock up their current maximum attainable value, while they search for a better option subconsciously. In such as way as to avoid negative competition from other women.

I think on the larger scale since it's multiple motives being played out on longer time scales than one human life it's probably too complex to completely unravel though.

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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 11:56 am 
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Firstly thanks to Altair and TheDude for making me think
Altair wrote: *
I think on the larger scale since it's multiple motives being played out on longer time scales than one human life it's probably too complex to completely unravel though.
Agreed.
I peel onions one layer at a time and take a pause when my eyes water too much
Altair wrote: *
It could work, although I've always viewed their drive for commitment as a way to lock up their current maximum attainable value, while they search for a better option subconsciously. In such as way as to avoid negative competition from other women.
This is the bit that has been bugging me (previous to your post). It sounds good, my gut disagrees.

As the second and third parts are visible and observable, the first is kind of an assumption (their drive for commitment). I will come back to this.

For example, are they covered by the commitment (watching their actions) as their male counterpart is?
I would argue not, from what I see around me.

Commitment was an attempt to counter briffaults law (or rather to counter the visisble effects of it), there were things put in place by society to try to enforce or encourage that. The male felt more secure in that the female concerned would not be affected by those drives, because she had made the commitment in return for his commitment, or so the thinking went.

I say those commitments are not and never were even vaguely equal in action or thought and cannot be.

I was meaning as a way for males/society to deal with briffaults law. An antidote to briffaults law in nature, without the definition only by observing the results. (And drawing incomplete conclusions)

As you point out, the application of briffaults law in females means it is acted out in the moment. Surely this is contrary to the whole concept of commitment, together with the rules of the law?

I would see oneitis/orbiting, as the option where male provides the value without receiving anything in return. Which in effect looks like females triggering males commitment circuit without providing value or very low value for short periods of time, the males are providing value in an attempt to gain commitment, the females obviously take advantage of that because - free value.

I keep coming back to, if the female wants the males commitment (ie continued provision of value), there needs to be a counter value offered. Some societies view part of this counter value as assured paternity and sexual access. (This is a male view)

We know this is not valid, from various studies that have been done on paternity and named fathers. The males may think they are the fathers however in some cases, they are not.

Now society when it put in place its restrictions and rules, gave females a structure to work within. People of both sexes are very good at finding ways to work around and break rules, also to take advantage of them.

Is it possible that females apparent drive for commitment is a tactic to use those boundaries around them to their best effect.

It is a mask as effective as their makeup.

The sad part is the complicity of the majority of males and their complacency in not noticing things are a changing.

Which brings me back to the original post and why the phrase 'Men are the gatekeepers of commitment' bothers me so much every single time I see it repeated.

My gut is shouting NO!

They may very well and are the gatekeepers of their commitment, because of their own actions... Is this the message that you want to pass with the phrase though, as though commitment is the key to everything... I think not... value is the key...

Repeating this message is adding to the fog, not removing it, imho.

Get men to understand their value and value themselves and this discussion takes on a different note, with the same rules and boundaries but entirely different results.

-

females do not need or require a male to solely commit to them, all they need is to know that their needs for value are being fulfilled and where that value is coming from *now*.

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In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 2:22 pm 
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Very interesting conversation and reflection.
Reminded me of Delusion Damage : What Are You Good For?

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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 5:07 pm 
peregrinus wrote: *
I peel onions one layer at a time and take a pause when my eyes water too much
Peregrinus my friend, i peel onions this way:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-raohl8idU
no eyes watering for me ; )

peregrinus wrote: *
They may very well and are the gatekeepers of their commitment, because of their own actions... Is this the message that you want to pass with the phrase though, as though commitment is the key to everything... I think not... value is the key...
Men are gatekeepers of masculinity (as viewed by the female)
Woman are gatekeepeers of femininity (as viewed by the male .. you know what i mean ; )


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