Natural Freedom

Hey guys. I'm gonna ask a short question...with a probably simple answer. Here it goes:

What's the opposite of indifference? Is it neediness? Cause if it's neediness than being indifferent is simply not being needy + not letting her rejection un-validate you.

Opinions pls

yes you got it right

_________________
"a sniper is the worst romancer, he never makes the first move"

In other words:

The opposite is being attached to the result/outcome. A small example: When you're indifferent it doesn't affect your happiness if you get rejected or not. If you end up getting laid, cool, if not, also great. If you're not indifferent, ergo attached to the outcome, you're afraid of getting rejected and would feel miserable if you got rejected.

And this fear women can smell instantly. So thats why indifferent men are so attractive and irresistible for women, they simply don't give their power away and don't let others affect their happiness. And this seems to be extremely rare in our society. Therefore, indifferent guys stand out and "attract girls to them like flies to shit" (the Kidd)

The way I see it - indifference is the middle (and optimal) point between two polarities. One side is the attachment side - the needy side, and the other is the aversion side - being repulsed, for example hating women and not wanting to have anything to do with them. IMO, indifference is what is left when both of those sides of the coin are gone.

_________________
“The only real valuable thing is intuition.”
Albert Einstein.

The way I see it, it's also a sign of intelligence because you understand...there are lots of factors implied in "mating" so it's pretty normal to get rejected at times... there might not be the right chemistry, you might not be her type, she might be looking for someone else or whatever. There can be 1 million crazy reasons, none of them meaning that you suck. I don't think you have to be like "you don't know what you're losing, bitch!". You can be indifferent but cool in the same time, cool meaning being very understanding and nice in a good way with the girl. I've heard of REAL success stories like this.

The way I see it is that indifference is also a sign of "It's ok, I can find other girls that like me for what I am...".

I mean, you can't be 100% indifferent. Total indifference means you totally don't give a fuck...but you do. I mean...you would prefer to have something with that girl more than you would prefer NOT having anything. I tend to agree more with Zan... that you do regret a bit that it didn't happen but you don't collapse and stay cool.

So, I'm a much bigger fan of "It's ok, no problem" than "Your loss, biaaaaaaaaaatch!"

----------------------

We're talking about indifference like it's this big ass concept that few men own... but... looking at the opposite I ask myself... Are most men needy? And if needy=lame....Are most men lame? ) (I include YOUR formal self here also...I include versions of myself ...I include anybody)

I strongly suggest doing the opposite of this.

_________________
"Simply put, you being in her life is a BLESSING. Her wronging you in any way is her own self-inflicted CURSE, and if she does wrong you, then let the punishment fit the crime. Her life will absolutely SUCK without you."

there is this fear inside all men that don't whant to let go this "being very understanding and nice in a good way with the girl. "

@Alchemist - Just because Zan says lots of things that didn't help you and his "method" is not a surefire way to skyrocket your success level to extreme heights without effort doesn't mean EVERYTHING Zan says is shit...

I see guys here throwing rocks at Zan and although I don't believe Zan has the capacity and the awareness of your problems to make a ladies man out of you, I do believe his "material" can make you be a more compassive, kind and honest person... which are qualities that I deeply respect in my good friends....and yes, not all...but many women respect in men. Many women would rather hook up with a cool, confident guy that seems to genuinely care about her (which is still a nice guy but not a "proverbial nice guy" aka a very insecure ass kisser) rather than a total dipshit.

So about Zan....

I would give him thumbs up for giving examples of ballsy-ness (Zan in the elevator with that girl, Zan inviting the woman from the cash registry to hang out with him without knowing her...), for telling guys that loving women is a good thing (philosopher Osho talks a lot about this and nobody can call a guy like him an idiot...), for teaching guys to be honest and open with women instead of manipulative, for teaching them that having a purpose in life is a necessity that will help you become less needy and will give women a sense of security, that guys should be more sexual / more comfortable with their sexuality, they they should be light and fun, that they should see her as more than a pair of tits and an ass, that some people should take control of their life and start designing it instead of letting their lives flow in chaos and monotony, for telling guys that they can do nice things to women IF you're not supplicating but you are doing it cause you want to (of course, it's common sense that you SHOULDN'T rationalize your pussy behavior with things like "I wanna do it". Instead, I find it VERY NORMAL AND BEAUTIFUL to buy your wife or girlfriend some flowers if she treats you like a fucking king and your relationship is great...), for telling guys that women are people ... with fears, insecurities, personalities, thoughts and everything and you can see them as people who you connect with instead of targets or objects of your desire that are perfect and you have to impress them. Also his "All women are my women" concept is very good because it teaches you to be a better person and not one of those dipshits who make fun of women cause they don't look like Adriana Lima. Another very important lesson that Zan teaches (I've got this lesson from a friend of mine who's the best I guy I know with women)... KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT aka DISCRETION. If you shut up, people won't find out and women can have secret adventures with you without feeling easy and so on and without making themselves vulnerable to social pressure.
Of course this is not a magic formula that will get you laid 100% or will change your life 100% in a giffy...but it's definitely good information that can help. A jacket and some nice boots are not enough to keep me warm in winter...but they sure help in keeping my ears and my feet warm.

I would give him thumbs down for giving guys the impression that loving women and celebrating them is all that's needed... for letting some of the Amorati do stupid shit without telling them they're doing stupid shit... for posting stuff on mASF about his past that's incompatible with what he talks about on his DVDs... for giving guys advice like "If someone invites you to his birthday party and you don't wanna go...tell them you're not going because you don't wanna go." If my best friend would tell me something like that without giving me a reason I would interpret it as "this guy doesn't give a shit about me and he's not my real friend" and it would significantly ruin a great relationship. Other cons: not helping the guys on the forum, not sending guys to get in shape, not talking a bit more about sex/being good in bed or at least telling guys about the importance of all of this and directing them to read about this / practice / get good /whatever... Another big con is telling guys that women are perfect and it's their fault... I met some pretty neurotic, manipulative, evil, heartless and shitty bitches in my life that did disgusting things to other people. It's NOT always the guy that's the problem. There are forums just like this one for women and they are discussing their own personal issues and problems. And sometimes....there aren't any issues at all...it's simply a lack of compatibility. Did you know that some people can't connect sexually well because their immune systems are not compatible...which affects their attraction levels/chemistry... or something like that? Not all women are cunts, not all women are angels, not all men are the problem and not all men are good (some men are total dipshits).

There are probably more pros and cons but I don't know Zan and I am not a student of his. This is my personal opinion of Zan's teachings... comparing his teachings to the attributes that people, both men and women, appreciated in me and attributes that friends of mine that are good with women possess. I have been in hospital an year ago and I met a guy...he was a good looking guy...and I asked him to talk about women....and he wanted to give me advice. The main things he taught me was to stop anallizing myself that much and worrying... the other thing that he considered very important was discretion. Besides, he told me some other stuff.... much of it seemed fragments from Zan's materials...although he never studied this stuff. I've seen him in action with the nurse and he was the real deal...light and fun, ballsy, elegant... The guy had balls, he was a good person and he was smart.

Now I am very aware that MOST of Zan's stuff....in the wrong hands... can be deadly. If the guy is insecure, it is very likely that he will not improve, using this new found set of theories to rationalize his already severe approval seeking behavior and some guys would probably be very lame because they put common sense aside. Also they can be misunderstood by guys, making them think that these are tools to get approval from women and not bonuses, stuff that makes you feel better about yourself, ways to live better and other good stuff. So partially you're right...Zan's stuff can create pussies. On the other side, you are fucking wrong... Zan's stuff can be very useful to some strong guys and they might not be the full puzzle but they are good pieces. There's a reason why Zan mentions that his stuff is NOT for young/inexperienced people but for reasonably old/mature guys who are already mature enough, are getting laid enough but they want to be better people, they want better connections and they want more possibilities regarding coming in contact with women.

I failed miserably with Zan's teachings because I didn't listen... I selected one or two concepts that I liked and thought that they would be enough ... one of them was "loving women" and the other one was "women are beautiful". Of course these concepts made me needy and very outcome attached because I already was kind of needy and outcome attached... BUT HEY...THERE ARE MANY GUYS THAT HAVE THESE CONCEPTS AND GET LAID A LOT! (the guy from the hospital...some of my friends that get laid like pimps...)

I will change most of my clothes but I will keep my awesome sunglasses. Zan's stuff = my awesome sunglasses.

@ rant. I don't understand what you are saying. Are you saying that being an asshole is a necessity with women and you can't get laid if you're a normal, kind, and reasonably understanding person? I mean.... I am not talking that you must be the kind of guy that arranges a meeting with a girl and she doesn't show up and you're like "It's ok, I understand her...something might have come up...". I'm not saying "let her push you around and step on you like you're a carpet". I'm not saying it's ok to be scared that she'll leave you and you won't find someone else and it's ok to be a pussy and that you shouldn't tell her what you think if something's not right. NO! On the contrary, I do believe men should be men and not take shit... but I also think this is compatible with being a nice person and an understanding person in cases where her needs and choices are normal. I can reject a girl I get along with well...and I expect her to understand that she's not my type... why wouldn't I be understanding with girls that want something else from a sexual relationship that what I have to offer? Maybe she has an obsession with really tall guys....I can understand that

Good text, above, IulianC

Keeping mouth shut and ears open is a great advice,
everything a man says about another man´s Character
will add to his own.

_________________
♫♫♩♫‿◦

Very well articulated, Iulian. Well done.

_________________
EVERYTHING in life is conditional...EVERYTHING.

Pimposophy Revisited is now finally available on Amazon in all territories!

I usually edit my posts because I find spelling mistakes and stuff... because I type very fast and I feel very bad. Last night I wanted to call an ambulance to my place. I hate it when I make spelling mistakes.

Thank you all for appreciating my post. I hope I can contribute with many good insights that will come in handy to you guys.

I like it here more than on NG. Some people were total assholes with me back there. I'm not saying everyone...I'm saying that some people...some of the guys over there are EXTREMELY AWESOME! Props to Sean and Dylan...and not just them, I just don't remember other user names. I got really pissed when Hans sent me a message warning me that I will get banned if I post more stuff that's not compatible with their philosophies. I consider that being a user for a year that has contributed a lot to many discussions and ,although I didn't give brilliant advice because I'm no king of seduction, I was a good thread starter asking many interesting questions that lead to great conversations... sometimes challenging the "local stars", opening new fields to explore...

-------------

BONUS 1 gem from Zan: Women ACT offended when you're too sexual. I've seen this in hospital. They are in a way offended cause they don't wanna seem sluts...not even to themselves...but in the same time they like it cause they feel sexy.

Doctor: Hey nurse, the gentleman from room 102 that just left, the guy that you attended in the morning, asked if you do home service
Her: What? How dare he say that? Who does he think he is? (translation: Damn I'm intrigued)

BONUS 2 gem from me: Not everything women say is bullshit. Sniper told me that in his experience women taught him stupid shit about dating...and I can't contradict him. Women told me stupid shit also...because sometimes they have no idea what they are attracted to. They know what they LIKE....but sometimes "I LIKE" and "I'M ATTRACTED TO" are not the same thing, and the second one is more powerful. I can like the chubby girl that does my homework but that doesn't mean I wanna have sex with her. Women gave me a lot of cool insight into their personalities when I told them I'll keep my mouth shut. I found about crazy sexual fantasies they have... about personal experiences with guys... stuff they are attracted to and they like in guys BASED ON THEIR PERSONAL EXPERIENCES with GUYS THAT I KNOW and I'M SURE THEY ARE AS SHE DESCRIBES THEM. Women that told me that looks matter a lot to them never hooked up with ugly guys... women that told me they like nice guys always had nice guys as boyfriends (not supplicative guys, but kind guys that didn't treat them like shit). A woman told me she avoids really good looking guys for relationships because she knows he will cheat... she never had a very good looking guy as a boyfriend since she told me that...
Another proof: I told a female friend of mine what I told you in the BONUS 1 paragraph...and before I even finished she was like "The nurse liked it!"

So....women are not always full of shit... some women are for real. Heck...some women told me stuff Brent Smith and The Kidd are talking about ) ...indifference, working out, status, purpose(having a life)...etc. It's just that some women try so hard to be politically correct that they lie.... other times the guys exaggerate what the girl tells them (For example the girl tells him she wants a nice guy ...the idea is that caring about her is one of the qualities she wants in a guy... and the guy understand something like "Oh boy oh boy oh boy....now I'm gonna be EXTREMELY NICE and get EVERY GIRL I ATTEMPT TO...I've found the magic pill!")

you are rigth, maybe i misunderstood your point, but i wasn't talking about being an asshole, becasue i don't get mad when a girls reject me and as you say i understand that whatever the reason she have it's not my problem and i'm ok with that, i can be friend with her, but my point is that most men fear to be the guy that does't take shit and for every stupid thing women do they are afraid of saying somthing that they really want to say like "SHUT YOUR FUCKING MOUTH", instead they continue triyng to make her feel good,beacuse it's rude if you don't do it, and it's supose that modern men are more sensitive on the needs of the women

the limetd belief of women are normal, but i don't really care about what they say , that's why i have to pay atention to non-verbal signs,and somtimes they say a little word that means something, and most men are so worried about bieng nice with them and pay attention on what they have to say, that they don't see what she really need, a girl say in front of a good looking guy that she don't date good looking guys, fuck it, she want a good looking guy

*ahem*...to the WANTS of modern women. Get it right.

_________________
EVERYTHING in life is conditional...EVERYTHING.

Pimposophy Revisited is now finally available on Amazon in all territories!

I can appreciate your balanced perspective on Zan, Iulian.

Hans is a dick straight up, I was the most active one in his program and they acted like they were my friends until they shut me out for having a difference of opinion, if Zan mentions his stuff isn't for younger inexperienced guys like myself then he should make it a point not to take them on, most of his 'students' are young and inexperienced which leads me to think that he doesn't care and he's using them for his own personal gain whilst destroying them on the inside, there's nothing honorable or respectable in that.

Yes being a compassionate and caring person is important but only in regards to people who deserve it, my personal experience with women has given me more of a black and white perspective that's hard to shake off, it taught me that women prefer abusive men and anything that could be construed as a guy being nice kills any sexual intrigue she might otherwise have; I was clingy with my girlfriends in the past and when you haven't had that experience of being with someone even if it's just on the superficial level, you finally have some semblance of a relationship, you're so glad just to have someone there that a feeling of elation takes over and nothing else matters but her so you end up putting the bitch on a pedestal (that's what all these sucker songs are about), I just wanted to kiss them all the time because I was programmed by this movie-magic instant-love bullshit so I thought that's all relationships were: cuddling and kissing, if I had been with an older woman or known some guys that had their shit together at the time things would have been different.

Part of me is filled with regret from the past, when I see teenage dudes with their girlfriends I just think "man I wish I could have been that confident when I was a kid", how easy it is for them and all the emotional turmoil I have to go through just to get through the day because of this shit and I wonder wtf happened, I keep thinking when I finally get over it and start fucking that it'll make up for all the bullshit I've been through but the truth is it won't, I'll never forget what happened to me and how bitches treated me in the past and my emotions about it may still be there aftwerwards, so I have to work on letting it go but it's hard man.

_________________
"Simply put, you being in her life is a BLESSING. Her wronging you in any way is her own self-inflicted CURSE, and if she does wrong you, then let the punishment fit the crime. Her life will absolutely SUCK without you."

inexperienced guys who are trying to apply Zan's stuff will have little to no results and will probably get used by women.

He does have a few good ideas but not really a system to make someone a natural or an alpha male. If he took under his wing only advanced guys Or if he stopped talking in black and white all the time (that women are all sugar and honey) then 'maybe' he would be able to help guys.

what Zan does is giving women even more ego boost (as if they don't get enough attention as it is....) while he tells guys that they have to take the blame for everything (as if guys don't get enough of that already from the social matrix and the other pua shit )

Also by reading his old post at the fast seduction archive you can see he is not naive and clean like he pretends to be.

He did have a few good ideas and advise but I don't think I'll stop laughing at him.

_________________
"a sniper is the worst romancer, he never makes the first move"

Off topic / About Zan again

It's my thread so I take the liberty of hijacking it again.

I wanna add something that I remembered... from Zan, among being interested in her as a person(curiosity) and being in your body... vulnerability and openness. There's a certain strength in vulnerability... mostly because you face the fact that you are not perfect...and you also trust her enough to be vulnerable... and trust yourself enough that you will be almost immune to her attacks...although very few women are that-much-of-a-cunt to attack you when you open up. Other good stuff: women are sexual and appreciate good sex (common sense), phone numbers are nothing. There are many good things in his teaching... but I have to say that some of his interviews are better than his products...

this comes once you stop worriying about them, but you don't need to trust her to be vulnerable, when you are ok with your vulnerability it becomes confidence, no need of a girl to support that

It's true that only real bitches will attack men when they open up, but there are more than very few.

_________________
"Simply put, you being in her life is a BLESSING. Her wronging you in any way is her own self-inflicted CURSE, and if she does wrong you, then let the punishment fit the crime. Her life will absolutely SUCK without you."