Natural Freedom

Edit by Sniper: this started as a question but went into a debate
..........

so what do you guys think about push\pull?

for anyone who does not know what it means:

http://www.fastseduction.com/cgi-bin/fs ... ?Push_Pull

this concept I have read about in psychology before it was known in the seduction industry...

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"a sniper is the worst romancer, he never makes the first move"

because it's a tecnique,i don't find it natural, because it goes back in the mindset that we have to manipulate, game her, in order to make her love us

It is something very widely used in sales and advertising Sniper, you would find many books and articles on it in that area.

It does work, like most things. Depends on the situation and how you do it. It is manipulative and unnatural if done consciously.

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In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.

I prefer to think of it as Connect/Disconnect and yes you need it. If all you do is connect there will be no attraction and your ass goes in the friendzone, if all you do is disconnect she will tire of it if she has any hint of self-esteem....but the combination creates a wave of emotions and is what's needed. Like Penegrinus said it shouldn't be done conciously, but after developing the right attitude you'll do it naturally...in the beginning though you'll kinda have to do it conciously till it becomes second nature.

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The honey doesn't chase the bee.

A wise man once said "I find that a duck's opinion of me is influenced by whether or not I have bread."

From what I gather from this whole push pull thing I guess you have to be decent and then be a dick sometimes to keep things fresh?.

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"Simply put, you being in her life is a BLESSING. Her wronging you in any way is her own self-inflicted CURSE, and if she does wrong you, then let the punishment fit the crime. Her life will absolutely SUCK without you."

that's it?

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"a sniper is the worst romancer, he never makes the first move"

YUP

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In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.

It's hard to explain, I got so good at using it on a subtle level that I would make girls obsessed with me. Even though I try not be an evil bastard anymore, I still do it unconciously and it goes hand in hand with being unattached to the outcome. Girls are really good at this game. I just watched them and how they get guys twisted off with it and copied some of that. How they will be all interested in you one day and then not responds to your texts or if they do it will be much later than when you sent the text. They'll love you one and then ignore you the next. Did I mention that I was an incredibly evil bastard? Anyway, I still do these things, but now it's a programmed in me and not so much because I'm a manipulative summa na' bitch. I only use it in a very natural way nowadays. These are things I do automatically...

When she goes off for a minute at a party, I start flirting with her friend

Not always facing her head on when I'm talking

Giving her approval with a warm smile, but the moment she says something dumb, giving her the "Whatchu talkin bout Willis?" look.

Looking disinterested at least half the time(Again natural, because I usually AM disinterested)

Making strong sexual eye contact with other girls while I'm with her(Again, not to manipulate her, I'm just shameless about that. I do all the time no matter who I'm with)



These are all things I do naturally because I'm just being myself and you will act similar and unaffected by beautiful women the more interactions and relationships you have with them. Now push/pull as a technique can be used right off the bat, but it is very manipulative and the more you grow as a man the more you won't want the kind of girls that this manipulation attracts, but it can be fun for a while, so if you want to try it out, by all means go ahead. I can't really give you any great instructions for it because you have to calibrate these things for yourself through many interactions, but I will tell you it goes hand in hand with being indifferent, so if you get that down then these behaviors will come automatically.

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The facebook page for modern libertines now with accessibility!

Yeah...like I said basically reward/punishment when warranted. I too am a grand master of this shit...to the point it's downright GROTESQUE.

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EVERYTHING in life is conditional...EVERYTHING.

Pimposophy Revisited is now finally available on Amazon in all territories!

The first 8 seconds is perfect push pull...LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGN3C075 ... re=related

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The honey doesn't chase the bee.

A wise man once said "I find that a duck's opinion of me is influenced by whether or not I have bread."

No it isn't. )
Those who are familiar with Swinggcat's book Real World Seduction know that this is not true. Push-pull is a playful technique of teasing. You can use it in a serious way which is very manipulative... it's also called "sending mixed signals" where you show some interest and then you show total disinterest and you create confusion in her mind. I don't believe this GENERATES ATTRACTION...I only think it amplifies an already existing tension if the girl is not really anti-manipulation or smells your intentions of "gaming" her(following some script). The other type is the playful type where the girl knows that you're playing... it's kind of natural and I find it a fun way to play. Even though it's playful it still makes use of negative emotions...combined with positive ones. Ups and downs. You draw her towards you...you push her away...then before she even has the chance to be like wtf you draw her back in and she probably smiles...it's a game. That's kind of how Swinggcat explains it.

I don't think Swinggcat is a good example to follow, he's very manipulative... but Cameron said he rarely leaves the club without a girl. He's also a spoiled rich guy... extremely versed in the arts of manipulation, brain functioning and psychology.

So this is the classic "community push-pull".

Kidd's version is a much better concept.

I think a lot of the time its easier to just let go. You pull in and then if she does something you don't like you just let the attention you were giving her go. Everyone says it but so much of the community is based on reaction to frames. Like your talking chilling whatever, and then she wanders off to talk to her friends and you feel the need to run through a bunch of affirmations in your head to counteract the insecurity you feel like "her loss, I am the prize, I can do better anyways". Instead of being like ok I'm giving her attention and she left so now I have to react to create space like I don't care. Just I don't even know how to describe it, its a really fluid emotion and your like ok, I'll just stay and finish my drink, or go talk to my friends. Not a big deal, if nothing happens I'll make a sandwhich.

You cannot do it, without the sense of self to back it up. If you do it consciously without a strong sense of self it comes off as creepy.
And if you have a strong sense of self, you'll do most of it unconsciously. Push should only be used when you set a clear verbal or non verbal boundary and she crosses it.

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"The heart is deep beyond all things, and it is the man. Even so, who can know him."

The Modern Libertine said this: Spot on, I used to try to use push/pull and a million other things way back in the day - and I've come to the conclusion that anything you do that is trying to get a reaction out of someone never works. People and especially women can sense this.

If you become a great guy who has it together, you will naturally push pull without even trying.

The Modern Libertine gave some great subtle examples, that I find myself just doing sometimes too. Here's another example that I see in my life, where push/pull just naturally comes out of being myself and looking out for my needs.

Now a days, I have so many social events, parties, dates that I'm invited to and get so many texts and phone calls - that sometimes I'll just check out for a couple days for some much needed me time, not calling, talking, or texting anyone. Sometimes go camping alone. What always happens is these girls will then call more being like "are you mad at me or something?? What's going on???" This would be a push I guess, and then when I do feel like returning a call and tell them I just needed to get away, they get a huge sense of relief (this would be a pull??)

It's like peregrinus and The Kidd say, if you leave space and don't fill in all the blanks - women will come up with their own crazy drama stories in their head and do all the work for you - taking themselves on a roller coaster of emotions and push/pulls that they need.

Yep...less is more.

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EVERYTHING in life is conditional...EVERYTHING.

Pimposophy Revisited is now finally available on Amazon in all territories!

I see this as her trying to pull you, because she feels (due to her head/imagination) that you have pushed her.
In reality you have not pushed her and her pull is more likely to push you (me at least).

[note - symps would dive right in here and try to calm her down and reassure her (the pull working).. there is no need, it is all her imagination] This I see as negating the push she imagined from you, hence it is not really a pull but the removal of an imaginary push. This has a similar effect to a pull without being a pull.

[if you think of this as distances on a map or graph or something it may make more sense, she felt you had pushed her (further away) now she realises you havent, so she ends up closer than she thought she was (hence it seeming like a pull), in reality she is same distance as she really was all along] Spot on!

Aint it fun

You could never come up with the combinations they require, no matter how hard you try to, they can though and all on their own.
You can actually kill the ride for them, or make it wilder, by your actions.

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In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.

*insert my non-homosexual love for 'Grinus here*

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EVERYTHING in life is conditional...EVERYTHING.

Pimposophy Revisited is now finally available on Amazon in all territories!

Peregrinus, that makes total sense about the imaginary distance. In that case this is all I do, by being myself and not fearing loss, doing my thing - I guess with the space provided (to quote you) I let the women do all the work in their own mind.

"Why didn't he call me back, why wasn't he chasing me hard like every other guy, is he seeing other girls, is he famous?? what did he mean with that vague statement"

In light of this, I guess I don't know what true push/pull is (nor do I really care, as I just do my thing, and it seems to work)

So would true push/pull be like saying "That was really weird (slightly creeped out face)...ahh ha, but that's why I like you "

or something like that? Anyway, I don't use tactics anymore, and I like the way you described what I was doing!

^^^This works way better anyways, and yes is a lot of fun

Actually, I re-read your reply, peregrinus, and ya pretty awesome, you stated this in such a great way that makes so much sense

Far different than the "seduction communities" take on this, and far more efficient, and see next quote.

This is why this place is so great, with what is taught here, the women do everything, no need for wasted effort on manipulation. I'm too lazy for that anyway