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 Post subject: Getting lost
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:22 am 
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Hey guys it's been a while. I've spent a lot of time on myself, but there is something I have not been able to deal with.

I've come to terms with being alone, and even being alone forever. I'm sure there's more to come, but in that moment I was completely fine with being alone forever. I don't understand why I get so emotionally involved with women, especially when I do fine without them. Yet, whenever they come in the picture my emotions go whack.

I had a great night with a girl recently who really opened up to me. I enjoyed the interaction incredibly. She texted me like right after thanking me and telling me I know more about her than most... I could not sleep that night, and my heart still feels so out of whack. The feelings are intense and now I want her REALLY bad. No matter how long I sit with these types of feelings I can't seem to get to the bottom. Eventually what happens is they just 'drop' out of my emotions and become nothing to me, unless we have more moments in which case it just becomes a painful cycle...

Is it supposed to be painful? Or is it possible to be as ground when without them?


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 Post subject: Re: Getting lost
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:15 am 
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Location: Laniakea Supercluster
Why is your wanting 'bad'? Explore

When is your next date? and is it with this same girl
or with someone you don't want to date as much?

It's a self esteem thing. You should be able to date whomever you want,
provided that you give them the space until their feelings catch up, if they
ever will.

Until then, evaluate their level of interest to you and treat accordingly.
No need to project your own feelings on her and think that is where her
level of interest is.

(She opens up to you, that is where she is. You on the other hand
are already everywhere with her... you're not lost, you're too early ! )

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"When values are clear, decisions are easy." ---Dan Peña


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 Post subject: Re: Getting lost
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 3:56 pm 
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If you haven't "come to terms with being alone" while your around women then you haven't come to terms with it. If you find yourself being sucked into them for example.

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We go away to find home, we make acquaintances to understand friends, we converse in order to enrich our conversation with ourselves. - Michael Oakeshott


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 Post subject: Re: Getting lost
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 5:32 pm 
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Location: Laniakea Supercluster
Pindar wrote:
If you haven't "come to terms with being alone" while your around women then you haven't come to terms with it. If you find yourself being sucked into them for example.


Quote:
“You need to be right, you need to make money, you need to be successful – it’s the neediness that’s the problem. Instead, become that which attracts those things.”
— Dr. David Hawkins

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 Post subject: Re: Getting lost
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:01 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:11 am
Posts: 728
Let's word this another way:

I feel totally fine when when something that completely triggers me isn't present.
I even feel fine about the idea of never being totally, helplessly triggered again.

Doesn't exactly mean all that much, does it?

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 Post subject: Re: Getting lost
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:45 pm 
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Posts: 118
Jared wrote:
Why is your wanting 'bad'? Explore

When is your next date? and is it with this same girl
or with someone you don't want to date as much?

...

(She opens up to you, that is where she is. You on the other hand
are already everywhere with her... you're not lost, you're too early ! )


The wanting just hurts so I label it bad. I'll see her after thanksgiving break. Love that last part.

Flow83 wrote:
Let's word this another way:

I feel totally fine when when something that completely triggers me isn't present.
I even feel fine about the idea of never being totally, helplessly triggered again.

Doesn't exactly mean all that much, does it?

Haha, not really. I've been getting better at letting the intense feelings in the moment pass through, but it is like a vicious current that eventually drags me off. In the past I might've lasted five minutes. And I do like the idea of not feeling that type of way. I can't seem to tap into those feelings by myself either.


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 Post subject: Re: Getting lost
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:20 pm 
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Great advice from all the guys. Let me add my 2 cents.

I get the feeling you're learning to be content with yourself so you have the proper vibe when meeting women. Then you hit the panic button and throw everything out the window if that strategy doesn't seem to be working.

If you're honestly fine not hooking up with a woman while you're speaking with her, your intensity of attachment won't change much over the course of your interactions. If you're psyching yourself up to seem unattached so you can hook up with said woman, you're just confusing the fuck out of yourself and being the same needy dude you were a while ago, taking 2 steps back.

And also - be fine with being attached! It's normal, not some crippling disorder you need to get rid of to live your life fully. Chisel away at it over a regular basis and it'll shrink, but don't feel you need to get over it in some single moment of great epiphany. Don't think it's happened to anybody here that way.

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 Post subject: Re: Getting lost
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:08 pm 
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All we know is that there's a feeling that comes up inside of you around certain circumstances here. It could be a million things, it could be some old childhood association, it could be mom, it could be mostly being open and connected to that energy for a moment, may have nothing to do with sex or vibe or trying to be cool.

Drop everything you've learned about 'attachment to women' and 'trying to be content on my own but I can't get to the bottom of the feeling sitting alone' because they are all assumptions that may or may not have anything to do with what is actually going on.

Keep inner work direct and simple.

Men of the world: stop treating stuff that comes up for you around the subject of women as being unique and special from any other stuff that gets triggered inside of you. If you were hit with these feelings after visiting a certain location or watching a movie would you assume all these things about what's going on? Treat the feeling as any feeling and work with it accordingly. Literally everything else, including your own mind, can at best make a logical guess about what it might be- or you can just process it directly, by whatever means works for you, letting go etc.

Quote:
I've been getting better at letting the intense feelings in the moment pass through, but it is like a vicious current that eventually drags me off.


Good. It's good that you can let the triggering happen and subside but it would be appropriate to move into the source now, as I'm sure you don't want to just keep having this happen but be more able to let it subside. Also note that a feeling is incapable of dragging off that which is aware of a feeling. It does not have that kind of power but it does capture your attention in a way that a habitual response follows.

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Last edited by Flow83 on Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Getting lost
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:14 pm 
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Pindar wrote:
If you haven't "come to terms with being alone" while your around women then you haven't come to terms with it. If you find yourself being sucked into them for example.


Yeah, you only know how you actually relate to something when you are actually around it :idea: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Getting lost
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 12:25 pm 
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Location: Laniakea Supercluster
Flow83 wrote:
Pindar wrote:
If you haven't "come to terms with being alone" while your around women then you haven't come to terms with it. If you find yourself being sucked into them for example.


Yeah, you only know how you actually relate to something when you are actually around it :idea: :lol:


"Paradoxically, the center is everywhere."

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"When values are clear, decisions are easy." ---Dan Peña


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 Post subject: Re: Getting lost
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 4:46 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:46 am
Posts: 118
Flow83 wrote:
Good. It's good that you can let the triggering happen and subside but it would be appropriate to move into the source now, as I'm sure you don't want to just keep having this happen but be more able to let it subside. Also note that a feeling is incapable of dragging off that which is aware of a feeling. It does not have that kind of power but it does capture your attention in a way that a habitual response follows.

Pm'd you about sessions.

Dug into this last night and felt a very strong feeling of needing others approval in order for something to be real/validated. Glad I'm on break and have time to spend hours on this.

One of the most touching moments for me that night is when she thanked me using my name before we parted. I want more interactions where me and others can be raw, vulnerable, and actually feel like we get to know each other. Most of my relationships are surface level and I rarely feel like we get into things that matter to either of us.


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 Post subject: Re: Getting lost
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 7:46 am 
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These things are going to happen. You can do all the "triggering" you want for anything, but you also have live life. Practice isn't like game conditions. :)

Focus on getting to the point where you can experience those feelings without them overwhelming you. At some point, you have to start working with direct experience in your life.

Also, don't try so hard to "process" or even "accept" the feelings. Sometimes you have to appreciate them for what they are and what they're telling you. You'd be surprised at how far you get when you just appreciate the feelings. It's very similar to accepting them but sometimes our conception of what acceptance means hinders us from experiencing the feelings in the way we should be experiencing them.

You wouldn't look at losing your life savings the same way as you would look at having your favorite food or even being with a woman who fits everything you're looking for. At the end of the day, you strive to accept all of them, but the direct experience is different. You have a deep feeling of longing for her. Just appreciate it. She feels for you too to some degree. Just appreciate the situation for what it is and you'll start knocking down some of that attachment.

You can also have attachment for many things too so you may want to take a step back and look at where else it is. Women are a great carrot for seeing certain leaks in yourself that you don't like and want to change. Take stock of everywhere that attachment is. From the sounds of it to me, your entire relationship with it has been altered from the work you've already done.

You need to look at that relationship in general.

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 Post subject: Re: Getting lost
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:48 pm 
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Yes, do not get too caught up in making a huge project out of this. To re-emphasize from Slim Titan, live your life, "allowing" and all of this is meant to deeply simplify and enhance the natural experience of life, which contains an infinite variety of emotions, experiences, what will be seen as highs and lows, etc. To be with what comes up, including resistances, unfulfilled desires and the like. It's not about everything happening 'perfectly' or not experiencing certain feelings, but your ability to be centered and be with them as they happen, a different way of relating to them.

You were spending a lot of time alone, then stuff came up when you got into an intimate situation again. Totally normal, don't judge that this means you haven't done enough work on your own and now it's necessarily time to spend more hours alone digging in to things. This can so easily turn into a way of avoiding just being out there in the world with people and all the uncertain stuff that can happen. That uncertainty and the fact that crazy new feelings and experiences can come up actually becomes a big part of the fun, and not even just the 'good' ones, as weird as that can sound, I think everyone has some intuitive sense of that.

There's a lot of overhead around the inner work here. Most guys create an idealized image of what it means to be 'unattached to women' and how that all plays out, and then work from that, judge themselves around what comes up. Can you see the comparison and ideas in place around what you were feeling around this girl vs "what I *should* be feeling based on the stuff I was doing" - and also the ideas of what it really means to 'get to the bottom of a feeling' and what is supposed to happen. Relax the whole thing a bit, you are not a project to be fixed. Gonna clarify one aspect of what you said in the next post as well to hopefully save a lot of time on the new goal to spend hours with the feeling of needing approval from others. (btw I don't have any PM's from you, did you send it here?)

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 Post subject: Re: Getting lost
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:21 pm 
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This can feel subtle but it can be an enormous shortcut and simplifier (talking years here)

You do not have a feeling of wanting others approval to feel validated. There is no actual feeling sensation that could be described that way.

What do you have are a series of feelings in the body and emotions, likely lots of resistances to those feelings and tension, contraction happening. This is a pure visceral experience: heat, tension, feeling of aggression, of anxiety, etc. The experience itself before it is given a reason and a story.

Any set of feelings but especially uncomfortable ones, we label them and create a context around it. This is what the mind does for everything, just like you say 'my body' which is a very complex verb of trillions of things dying and regenerating. We want to know what a feeling 'means' so that we have a description, a way of feeling like we can work on it and think about it.

In that moment you create a little universe where are you now 'working on this feeling of needing others' approval to feel validated' and seeing everything through that. You can dig into that for hours, get all sorts of memories of wanting approval, this can just keep going forever because you can always find or create more associations.

Now, do you like the idea of needing others' approval to feel validated?
NO
who wants that?
how easy is it to just welcome up and be present with this 'feeling of needing others' approval to feel validated?'
You DONT want others' approval to feel validated,
then we start calling that resistance and i'm not really accepting it, "i'm supposed to be fine with that" etc.
How quickly to now see yourself as this guy who needs validation, and start comparing it to your image of the badass guy who doesn't need it and gets the girls and has a cool life. You are working on the concept more than the solid, real feeling.

Instead now just go to one simple sensation that clearly comes up. Contraction in my throat. That's the one thing you absolutely know for a fact is true: the throat is contracted. Don't take it any further than that. Your mind will start creating a context around it in a split second but the only thing you will take as truth is 'there's a feeling in my throat.'

Now just put your attention on that feeling in your throat. Put all of your attention and curiosity on it. It's actually pretty interesting when you just look closely at it. Just be with that and see what unfolds, what starts coming up, and just remain clueless about what it means and totally open and curious. You are just feeling and listening and exploring now, you are not in the world of fixing problems and digging into your need for validation and all of the assumed stuff there.

This can get you right to the heart of something in seconds and you may never understand it, just a direct shift in something vs. if you take it all the way down to "here's this feeling of needing others' approval that i'm working on" - which is a conceptual box you could work inside of for literally years and years.

Can you feel the difference?

It all happens in a split second but is a universe of difference. It can feel too simple or no way it could do anything but if we can start working with direct experience you can start seeing 'progress' in a way that is so dramatic it's unfathomable to the regular way of working with things that we are trained to do.

Yes you have heard it before and it is the fundamentals but it is also: subtle, not as interesting to the mind, not what we are conditioned to do, something we often think we are doing when we are not, seems to basic to actually be doing anything, and the MOST powerful and effective thing by 10000x I have ever experienced. Once you are working with direct feeling, any technique or whatever your preferences are from that point on are just a matter of taste and are going to work.

Lastly, do not separate this as something to be done in your bedroom. You can be present, open, and curious while you are: taking a walk, talking to a girl you like, talking to one you have no interest in, when you are being funny or serious. You will find yourself simply being whatever that moment requires of you, not what the idea of the 'perfect, unattached guy would do here' for example. Way simpler and way more enjoyable.
Happy holiday

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 Post subject: Re: Getting lost
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 5:30 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:46 am
Posts: 118
Had a very transformative and freeing session with Flow the other night and would highly recommend him. I came to accept my emotions and desires that came up instead of trying to get rid of them under the guise of 'freedom'.

I met with the girl again and I'm just not sure. We talked for about 2.5 hrs. Initially it felt good and she felt very receptive, at one point I thought about pushing things further based on the intimate/intense way she was looking at me. Instead we continued talking, she would keep filling in silences that would pop up - which I thought might come to end our time together. It was late and I wanted to go to bed to get enough sleep for my morning class. I let her continue to talk, she was very talkative. Although, after the look I just described things felt different (her body language didn't change much) and I wasn't sure if it was my doing or how I felt about her. Even though she was completely faced to me, seemed attentive, and talking the feel was different. It felt friendly and I actually felt less attracted to her. I thought she was a good fit before, but I don't feel a lot of chemistry and I'm not sure if it is actually the case, she just doesn't like me that much, or I just wasn't bringing it out?


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 Post subject: Re: Getting lost
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:42 am 
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Thanks man.

Don't go into your head now.

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 Post subject: Re: Getting lost
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 6:20 am 
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I do want to become better with women and am trying to learn. I'm trying to feel into it as I go and take mental notes.

I met another girl and hit it off quite easily. I realized I was bringing a bit of awkwardness into interactions with the girl I was speaking about and didn't feel I was able to completely express myself. I spent the late afternoon and evening (6hrs) with her and a mutual friend and realized how easy I could talk to the friend and how I censured myself and felt unsure of myself when speaking to her. I was hiding. Being intimate scares me, I realized whenever it might come to such a point I'd withdraw, look away, etc. I do feel I was at least in part creating less attraction for the both of us.


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 Post subject: Re: Getting lost
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:08 pm 
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Location: Laniakea Supercluster
foofatron wrote:
I spent the late afternoon and evening (6hrs) with her and a mutual friend and realized how easy I could talk to the friend and how I censured myself and felt unsure of myself when speaking to her.


6h with a new girl...

There is no rule against it & the freedom to do so is yours
and you don't have to explain anything.

I personally could not create a 6h block for any new person
when I have things to do and skills to learn. 6h sounds like something
a couple living together would do, or gf staying overnite etc

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 Post subject: Re: Getting lost
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:34 pm 
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Jared wrote:
foofatron wrote:
I spent the late afternoon and evening (6hrs) with her and a mutual friend and realized how easy I could talk to the friend and how I censured myself and felt unsure of myself when speaking to her.


6h with a new girl...

There is no rule against it & the freedom to do so is yours
and you don't have to explain anything.

I personally could not create a 6h block for any new person
when I have things to do and skills to learn. 6h sounds like something
a couple living together would do, or gf staying overnite etc


Oh to be the age again where 6 hours was an option to choose (want to or not) :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Getting lost
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:45 am 
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One thing that often happens when guys are "working on getting good with women" is that now everything that happens is on you and the result of something you are doing or not doing correctly. Never forget that unlike a computer game or skills with inanimate objects, here you are dealing with the energy between two human beings and there will be remarkably different things happening depending on the other variable.

There are some people it feels natural to be open around and connect with and others it does not. To try to force against that can actually be very counterproductive. you want to make sure what you are experiencing with whichever girl you felt unsure of is consistent across the board before you consider it a problem that's about you. Make sure you are consistently accessing that place of stillness like in the other day, because it's from that place that it's very clear how some things you thought were problems were very laughable, and the things that actually do have some meat of are seen much more clearly.

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