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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:14 am 
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Alright, the girl I've been seeing for a couple months now (the one from "The Bird and The Oak Tree" thread) earned her first strike yesterday. Unlike baseball, I have a 2-strike rule, so she's walking on thin ice right now, although if she behaves extra good for a long enough period of time, she can earn back her strike.

Here's the summary - we hung out saturday, and she slept over. Sunday morning she had to go to work by 9, so she got up early and left and I went back to sleep. No texting back and forth with her during the day.

At around 6 I go over to my friend house to hang out. At around 7 we start playing a board game, so I go put my phone in the other room. She texts me at 8:15 to see what I'm doing. I don't text her back until 9:15, when I just tell her, "playing board games over at Chris's house." Right then, my phone dies and won't turn back on - its been behaving erratically since I got it wet a few weeks ago. She texted me back right away, "Who are you playing with?" - fishing for an invite, but of course no response because my phone was dead so I never got the text. At about 9:30 when I still hadn't responded, she texts, "Alright, just don't respond..."

So, clearly not my fault that my phone died and I never got her text asking who I was playing with and fishing for an invite. I can empathize that she felt left out or ignored because I didn't respond back, even though I had just texted her 1 minute before, but there wasn't anything I could do. When I get back home at 11, I plug my phone in and send her a text telling her my phone died so I didn't get either of her texts until just then. She doesn't respond.

Monday no texting, and monday night we happen show up at the gym at the same time (we belong to the same gym, but we didn't plan on going together). She's clearly upset with me and giving me the cold shoulder, very accusatory looks and body language, avoiding talking to me. We both go about our workouts and finish up at about the same time, so we walk out together. She's still very standoffish. I tell her to come sit with me in my car for a minute, she says we should go talk at her house because its too cold and she lives very close, so we each drive over there.

Once at her house, I call her out on her bad behavior. I tell her that I don't like the way she was acting, and that I would expect better behavior from a girl I was seeing. She keeps testing me for a bit, trying to get me to shoulder some blame or admit fault in some way, but I hold strong. She even pushes hard enough to accuse me of lying about my phone dying, which I then turn around back on her and tell her that its very insulting that she thinks I would lie to her. Eventually she realizes that I'm not going to back down, so she softens way up and apologizes for everything.

Up to this point, this is all a textbook female testing, so I just handled it in the tried-and-true way of standing firm, sticking to logic, and not giving ground or admitting anything.

Of course after she apologizes, she gets all gushy and wants to cuddle up in my lap, run her hands through my hair, etc. This part is also textbook. I soften up my body language/posture a fair bit, but not completely.

At this point she starts talking to me just kinda about how her life is going, and the subtext of the conversation is essentially her trying to rationalize and make excuses for her bad behavior in order to paint it in a more favorable light. I ignore her rationalizations for the most part.

We make out and have sex. After sex she gets up pretty much immediately and puts on some clothes before laying back down again. Normally she'll just lie there naked with me for at least a few minutes until she gets up to go to the bathroom. I ask her why she was in such a rush to put on clothes just to lie back down. Doesn't seem to make much sense.

She gets all self-conscious and says, "I feel fat" in a very sheepish way, and then turns her head to look at me waiting for my response. She has actually gained a couple pounds, but she is far from being fat. She's not even curvy - I would still call her athletically slim, but her weight is about as high as it ever gets. She probably would be a little bit more attractive if she did lose about 3-4 pounds. If she lost 10, she would start getting too thin and less attractive.

This girl definitely does have her fair share of insecurities (like almost all girls), and I think her "I feel fat" statement was somewhat motivated out of that, but it was also somewhat another test thrown my way.

Recognizing the situation, I just went to my default response when I don't immediately know what to say, which is to disacknowledge and disorient - just not give her any verbal response, positive or negative, but give her some confusing body language. She's cuddling up next to me, so I just give her a very short, "hm" without turning to look at her, and then I run my hand up and down her arm sorta half-caressing her. She lays there for another couple minutes before getting up and going to the bathroom. When she gets back we talk about other things normally before going to sleep.

So, after all this, my question is - how would you have dealt with her "I feel fat" statement. I can see a number of flawed answers I could have given:

1) Go on the offense. Agree that she is fat and mock her. Could work, but if her statement was motivated mostly out of her insecurity, this will seem overly callous and mean.
2) Tell her to quit being silly and deny that she is fat in a very matter of fact way. This has the potential to be interpreted as sympish, especially if done with the wrong body language.
3) Go Zen on her and tell her she should work on accepting herself for who she is in the moment. This does leave the door open to her accusing me of agreeing that she's fat by virtue of my not denying it.
4) Don't verbally give her a response, like I did.
5) Something else?

Just to be clear, I'm not anxious or upset or angry about any of this situation, nor do I feel like I "need to know the right answer". I'm perfectly fine with how I already handled it in the moment, but its just something that I was thinking about and thought it would be fun to get some feedback. Funny answers are just as good as serious ones. 8-)

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:44 am 
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Quote:
Funny answers are just as good as serious ones. 8-)
Patrice O'Neal version : http://youtu.be/M9cZ3BpLwjs?t=1h33m00s

"My girlfriend's gaining weight", she said "will you leave me ?" I said "Yeah!! I found you not fat"

What follows (only six minutes) is gold (and after also gold but not particularly on the subject).

---

I'd personally go for the beginning of 2.
Quote:
Tell her to quit being silly [without the denying part]
Edit, Clap clap clap, textbook it is. 8-)

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:38 am 
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You accepted sex as (part of/an extention of/the wrapping up of) an apology. Tut tut. Should have walked out the door.


As for 'I feel fat';

'Good, I hate skinny bitches'.

Or if I'm in serious mode,'If you don't like the way you look or feel, then change it. For yourself'.

Nothing else added. I don't consider it my business to placate someone's insecurities. I NEVER indulge them with sympathy.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:26 am 
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Remember who are the natural pimps.

Take her off that ´cupcake´hehe.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:17 am 
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Whenever I don't have a clue how to respond I say "Ok".... holding middle ground - neither agreeing, nor disagreeing... "I feel fat"... "Ok" ...


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:57 pm 
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I guess much depends on whether they are actually putting on a few pounds and what your personal standards are.
DMD wrote:
Whenever I don't have a clue how to respond I say "Ok".... holding middle ground - neither agreeing, nor disagreeing... "I feel fat"... "Ok" ...
It depends on how you say that.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:45 pm 
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Leo wrote:
It depends on how you say that.
Yup


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 4:44 pm 
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Meraki wrote:
She gets all self-conscious and says, "I feel fat" in a very sheepish way, and then turns her head to look at me waiting for my response. She has actually gained a couple pounds, but she is far from being fat. She's not even curvy - I would still call her athletically slim, but her weight is about as high as it ever gets. She probably would be a little bit more attractive if she did lose about 3-4 pounds. If she lost 10, she would start getting too thin and less attractive.
you should do what you always do and answer to her not to us (the forum):

"you have actually gained a couple pounds, but you are far from being fat. you are not even curvy - I would still call you athletically slim, but your weight is about as high as it ever gets. you probably would be a little bit more attractive if you did lose about 3-4 pounds. If you lost 10, you would start getting too thin and less attractive."

you should give her a constructive opinion from your point of view.

think like a pro and see bigger picture. its shit test - nothing you havent read,heard or experience before so dont play wussy.

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“Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one’s own way.” Viktor E. Frankl


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 5:24 pm 
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In the gym, eh?

You sure those pounds she's gaining are fat, brah? Get her to drop those heavy sets, and do 15+ to get that toned look. Don't want her looking like this:

[ img ]

But seriously, the insecure behavior on her end from the night before probably, in some way, stems from insecurity regarding her weight. Just do what you whatever you want, the beginning of the story is about you clearly not giving in to her reactions, so why start now?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:03 pm 
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She feels fat.

Fine

If she truly does feel fat, she is well within her rights to feel that.

If she does not feel fat and is fishing for something, she'll be waiting a long time for me to bite that bait.

You did not need to say anything, or do anything.

I feel tired today.

Do you feel an impulse to do anything about that?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:09 pm 
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Hah. Some nice responses. GB - that was definitely classic from Patrice. I was cracking up. :lol:

---
Leo wrote:
You accepted sex as (part of/an extension of/the wrapping up of) an apology. Tut tut. Should have walked out the door.
I did not. Maybe you are projecting?
Leo wrote:
I NEVER indulge them with sympathy.
Sympathy (and empathy, which is what I try provide) are free to give away, so why would I not give them?. What I don't do is I never EXCUSE them. Its one thing to say, "I can put myself into your shoes and see how you would feel upset, but that doesn't mean you should have done what you did, and I don't accept that kind of behavior," and its another thing to say, "I don't care how you felt, you were wrong, and I don't accept that kind of behavior."

---

@Moose - :lol: :lol: *shakes head while smiling* She was on the elliptical...

---
Grinus wrote:
She feels fat.

Fine

If she truly does feel fat, she is well within her rights to feel that.

If she does not feel fat and is fishing for something, she'll be waiting a long time for me to bite that bait.

You did not need to say anything, or do anything.

I feel tired today.

Do you feel an impulse to do anything about that?
This is pretty close to what I did, which like I said I feel fine about. ;)

---
Paranormix wrote:
"you have actually gained a couple pounds, but you are far from being fat. you are not even curvy - I would still call you athletically slim, but your weight is about as high as it ever gets. you probably would be a little bit more attractive if you did lose about 3-4 pounds. If you lost 10, you would start getting too thin and less attractive."

you should give her a constructive opinion from your point of view.
Not a bad option, though of course it would have to be said with the right tone.

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"The society gives you a map; I give you only freedom. The society gives you character, I give you only consciousness. The society teaches you to live a conformist life ... I give you an invitation to go on an adventure." - Osho


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:41 pm 
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Meraki wrote:
I did not. Maybe you are projecting?
From where I'm sitting you did, projection or not. I'd call it an interpretation rather than a projection, but anyhow.

She did something you didn't like(accuse you of lying, amongst other things). You use logic and reason to counter, she apologises, then a little later you let her fuck you. What does this really imply to her, and what has she really learnt? Actions > words.

To me what you did was tantamount to accepting sex as part of her apology. I would have left after I set her straight, as I always do, because I've learnt that providing sex straight or even soon after an apology only reinforces their undesirable behaviour. This is despite the fact that she has verbally apologised, and that you've accepted it(or seemed to, implied or otherwise).

I don't expect you to agree, and again, it's only my interpretation which is of course based on my own personal experience and therefore you're welcome to use the projection card :lol:

Meraki wrote:
Sympathy (and empathy, which is what I try provide) are free to give away, so why would I not give them?. What I don't do is I never EXCUSE them. Its one thing to say, "I can put myself into your shoes and see how you would feel upset, but that doesn't mean you should have done what you did, and I don't accept that kind of behavior," and its another thing to say, "I don't care how you felt, you were wrong, and I don't accept that kind of behavior."
I was only referencing the 'I feel fat' part. As in, I don't cater to attention seeking behaviour.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:56 pm 
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Leo wrote:
To me what you did was tantamount to accepting sex as part of her apology. I would have left after I set her straight, as I always do, because I've learnt that providing sex straight or even soon after an apology only reinforces their undesirable behaviour. This is despite the fact that she has verbally apologised, and that you've accepted it(or seemed to, implied or otherwise).
So, is it leaving and then having sex the next time that makes it ok? Is it a certain amount of time passing that makes it ok? How much time needs to pass - 48hrs? 24hrs? 12 hrs? 1 hr?

To me it seems you are making up rules, rather than working with principles.

I don't have any hard rules. I just have principles. I observe and analyse each situation for itself, rather than just try to apply a one-size-fits-all rule to it.

I agree with you that accepting sex as part of an apology is a bad move and should be avoided. I agree that having sex shortly after an apology oftentimes does send the message that the sex is part of the apology. I do not agree that having sex shortly after an apology has to mean that the sex is part of the apology. Its all based on gut feel, and to me it seems like you are basing things off of somewhat arbitrary, if generally useful, rules.

In my case, there was at least an hour and a half, maybe more between her apology and the sex. We had moved on to other things. I'm telling you that based on my logical analysis of the situation and on my gut feel, there was zero implication that the sex was part of her apology. It is irrelevant to me how much time passed. I know this girl and I know the body language and tonality of everything that was said/done.

I'm not trying to put down what you said. If you want to have a rule about apologies and sex, and a certain amount of time passing, or leaving and meeting up later, then by all means, have a rule and don't let me stop you. I'm just telling you that based on my thorough and logical analysis of all the details and nuances of the situation and on my gut feel, the sex was not considered part of her apology by either her or myself. If you try to tell me otherwise, I'm going to tell you that you are wrong. 8-)

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:39 pm 
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I'd be out right after that "Alright, just don't respond..." text.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:40 am 
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Yeah, I mean don't get me wrong, the thought definitely crossed my mind. But like I said - two strike rule. She's generally been very nice and well behaved for almost 4 months now, so I figured I would give her some rope and see if she decides to hang herself with it...

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:13 pm 
I didn't have a chance to respond yesterday.

It too seemed to me like sex was part of the apology. I'm not sure how much Leo and I differ on our positions about this, but to me it seemed like she may have thought that sex was part of the apology.

Hence, the I'm fat situation was precipitated by the sex.

Like Star, I was wondering about why you didn't fire her explicitly or implicitly.

Your decision to be proactive about talking through the situation is definitely important if you think she is worth your time though. This is something that I have found that I used to think differently about in the past.

Last note before I forget, I haven't been in an explicit or implicitly "titled" relationship in a while so my calibration on this is most likely outdated. When something like that issue came up in the last relationship I was in I would answer what I honestly thought. Just like everything you told us you thought about her being fat is what I would have actually said.

Why did you bother to say something about her getting up and dressing? That seems like a contributing factor to her saying she was fat. Was she specifically making it about you? Or, was this something she was trying to work through herself that you injected yourself into?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:47 am 
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You went back to sleep? I´d say you could squeeze in
1 ¼ - 2 things in your life easily when you wake up earlier,
especially at weekends...

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:22 pm 
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Slim wrote:
she may have thought that sex was part of the apology.
Its possible. I doubt it. But its possible.
Slim wrote:
I was wondering about why you didn't fire her explicitly or implicitly.
I have already explained this multiple times in this thread.
Slim wrote:
When something like that issue came up in the last relationship I was in I would answer what I honestly thought. Just like everything you told us you thought about her being fat is what I would have actually said.
Next time a situation like this comes up I might try this instead of just disacknowledging. In the name of science!
Slim wrote:
Why did you bother to say something about her getting up and dressing?
I like to understand people. She doesn't normally get up, put clothes on, and then lie back down. I asked her why she did that. I wasn't fishing for anything, and I didn't have a preconception for what her answer would be.
Jared wrote:
You went back to sleep? I´d say you could squeeze in
1 ¼ - 2 things in your life easily when you wake up earlier,
especially at weekends...
I am very serious about training for a certain sport that requires a lot of physical strength. I train hard, and in order to train hard and get stronger I also sleep hard. If I don't get enough sleep, I can't train as hard as I need to. To me its not about squeezing more things in - its about doing the few things I want to do, and doing them really really well.
---------

Update: Well, I said I would give her some rope and see what she did with it. For some reason, she decided it was a good idea to hang herself with it. She got drunk, behaved badly, so I told her I wasn't going to see her anymore. She was pretty devastated.

Based on her response though, I get the feeling that she actually has been very worried about me ditching her for quite a while now, and in some ways my ending it with her is a relief to her to just not have to worry anymore. It seems like this is rooted in her insecurity and her believing that she is not good enough to hold my attention, which in many ways is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Cop and blow, cop and blow.

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"The society gives you a map; I give you only freedom. The society gives you character, I give you only consciousness. The society teaches you to live a conformist life ... I give you an invitation to go on an adventure." - Osho


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:52 pm 
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Meraki wrote:
Jared wrote:
You went back to sleep? I´d say you could squeeze in
1 ¼ - 2 things in your life easily when you wake up earlier,
especially at weekends...
I am very serious about training for a certain sport that requires a lot of physical strength. I train hard, and in order to train hard and get stronger I also sleep hard. If I don't get enough sleep, I can't train as hard as I need to. To me its not about squeezing more things in - its about doing the few things I want to do, and doing them really really well.
---------
the Five-Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique and the Three inch punch...

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:30 pm 
Meraki wrote:
Slim wrote:
I was wondering about why you didn't fire her explicitly or implicitly.
I have already explained this multiple times in this thread.
You seem to have misunderstood me. I used the past tense explicitly. I was wondering that until it was brought up.
Meraki wrote:
Update: Well, I said I would give her some rope and see what she did with it. For some reason, she decided it was a good idea to hang herself with it. She got drunk, behaved badly, so I told her I wasn't going to see her anymore. She was pretty devastated.

Based on her response though, I get the feeling that she actually has been very worried about me ditching her for quite a while now, and in some ways my ending it with her is a relief to her to just not have to worry anymore. It seems like this is rooted in her insecurity and her believing that she is not good enough to hold my attention, which in many ways is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Cop and blow, cop and blow.
There were signs of this preceding the interaction you had. The most telling sign is her response to your lack of response when you were playing some games with a friend.

It was hidden but not so much that it was clear it wasn't going to work out.


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