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Ball Stealing
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Author:  Meraki [ Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:03 am ]
Post subject:  Ball Stealing
Ok, this question is specifically aimed at Kidd/Grinus, but I value the rest of you guys and your feedback, so any and all input is appreciated.

I get the gist of ball stealing. I've done it pretty successfully several times now. I even answered a question about it here: viewtopic.php?f=21&t=3434

That said, I keep coming back to this Kidd post though, which is very interesting to me: viewtopic.php?f=21&t=904&p=7877&hilit=keeper#p7877

The ball stealing I've done has been more along the lines of: girl I'm hanging out with/dating decides to get uppity or test me in some way, and I just break her test into pieces, demonstrating very obviously my possession of the ball.

I guess its not even so much that I'm actually stealing the ball from her, its more like I've quietly had possession of the ball, but I'm just calmly walking about the court slowly dribbling the ball, not dunking in her face or anything. Then girl all of the sudden tries to grab the ball from me, and I react quickly, throw the hard crossover, and streak past her to the basket all of the sudden. I would have been content to just keep walking around the court calmly with the ball, but her trying to lunge at it to take it from me prompted my action, and my crossover and dunk made it obvious that I had possession and wasn't giving it up.

That all seems pretty easy to do - its really just treat people accordingly 101 kind of stuff.

Now, I have been seeing quite a few girls, and seem to meet new ones who are hot for me quite often, so its no problem to kick girls to the curb if they don't behave right. I've only really been dealing with the ones who make it quite easy for me from the get go, so no need to steal the ball, or even really demonstrate my possession of it. Like these are girls who are so into me that they visibly get flustered just by my presence. Its really very easy with these chicks, and they're decent looking and cool enough, but they're really not knocking my socks off, and I'm getting bored of them.

Anyway, met a girl this past weekend who seems to have a bit more potential. She seems cooler than the normal girls I've been dealing with, and she's definitely more attractive. Not coincidentally, she is also quite a bit more composed in my presence. She wants to hang out with me, but she also has made it clear she wants to do the "get to know you by going on a few dates" thing. She suggested that we hang out, and I proposed the day/time/location. Went on the "first date" with her tonight - we each bought our own drinks for the first round, then she bought both of us a drink in our second round. All this communicates to me that she's not trying to be manipulative/bitchy - she's genuinely interested, but just wants to do this whole date thing for a bit to get comfortable with me.

So, by agreeing to her frame and going along with this date thing, I'm kind of letting her dictate the terms a bit. Its not an unpleasant frame since she's not being manipulative or bitchy in any way, and she's contributing at least her fair share, but it is still her frame. If she were to start acting up, then I would blast her, but I don't think she'll act up.

After all that, my question is - what would be a good way to go about this whole ball stealing thing based on this situation?

Kidd - when you went on dates/called your girl first/met her mother/waited a month to sleep with her - how did that all play out exactly? How did you eventually steal the ball and demonstrate possession? When did that happen? Was it overt, or subtle? Was it a single event, or just a vibe that changed over time? Was it something you planned, or something that just happened in the moment. Any tips/recommendations/lessons learned?

As usual, thanks for any and all feedback and insights.
Author:  Rolan [ Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ball Stealing
Thinking too much, trust your intuition. Don't worry about it being her frame, she's just setting it up for you to take the lead, and ascertaining whether you are congruent with her values. Is she congruent with yours?

If your intuition says its ok to take her test then do so. For my money, you need to play a little more of the game before stealing the ball. Though It's clear you think she has it. Is there anything wrong with allowing her a few dribbles whilst you warm up?
Author:  Rolan [ Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ball Stealing
A question i'd ask is,'Isn't it always THEIR frame?'.

Since they choose, It's an interesting prospect to contemplate, and not necessarily disempowering for us. What is disempowering is to always seek control of someone else.
Author:  Sai [ Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ball Stealing
Meraki, the best time to reel a fish in is when it has swallowed your bait ( with the hook and line).

Quote:
Long story short, I played her game and eventually we had sex. This is where the tide turned, because unlike most men, I am not enamored by pussy. I STAND UP in pussy, meaning that this swordsman gets a lot of compliments and repeat business. 8-)
if that fails, if you are having dinner with her and she starts power tripping, tell everyone " Leave Us"
if she says she's still in charge just put your hand on her shoulder and look her in the eye and say...

" Do you feel in Charge?" :lol:
Author:  Midas [ Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ball Stealing
Hello Meraki,

Watch this scene and see how he perfecly recovers himself and steals the ball:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxjfJqFxNGY

I experienced that the more subtle this is done the better it works..

Midas 8-)
Author:  The Kidd!! [ Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ball Stealing
Midas wrote:
Hello Meraki,

Watch this scene and see how he perfecly recovers himself and steals the ball:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxjfJqFxNGY

I experienced that the more subtle this is done the better it works..

Midas 8-)
That's no ball steal...that was merely 'passing a test'. :geek:
Author:  The Kidd!! [ Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ball Stealing
Meraki, for situation specific instances I do Skype sessions. I need to ascertain quite a few variables and then I can pretty much tell how things are going to go in many different ways considering many different options. :geek:

Short answer, your gut will steer you right. But it basically involves cloaking, getting past security, hacking the system while cloaked, then exploiting the vulnerability when the timing is right. If you need more specifics, PM me. 8-)
Author:  Meraki [ Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ball Stealing
Rolan wrote:
Thinking too much
Thats intentional. Just to be clear - I don't care if I "get her" or "lose her." This is just an opportunity that I'm interested in, and its playing out differently than the girls I have been seeing, so it seems like a good chance to analyze and overthink, in the name of science and learning...
Rolan wrote:
For my money, you need to play a little more of the game before stealing the ball. Though It's clear you think she has it. Is there anything wrong with allowing her a few dribbles whilst you warm up?
I actually feel like its unlcear who has the ball. Its just that I'm used to having complete possession from day 1, so being in uncertainty is new and different, and interesting. I see your point though. 8-)
Rolan wrote:
A question i'd ask is,'Isn't it always THEIR frame?'.

Since they choose, It's an interesting prospect to contemplate, and not necessarily disempowering for us. What is disempowering is to always seek control of someone else.
Well, thats definitely one way to look at it - they do have to invite you to the gym before you can start playing. However within the context of the gym, once they have invited you, then you can have possession of the ball or not. Also, I'm not interested in controlling anyone. I am interested in setting up the interaction so that I can make sure I get what I want, and she gets what she needs. The best analogy I can think of was from Grinus: A pimp tight man builds the fences around the field, and then lets the woman run free wherever she wants in that field. He doesn't chain her down to one spot with a short chain, but he also doesn't let her do anything and everything - the fences of the field are unbreakable, even if there is a lot of space inside of them. viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2624#p24726
Sai wrote:
the best time to reel a fish in is when it has swallowed your bait ( with the hook and line).
I like this quote. Sai - did you have a different handle on the forum before? I've been away from the forum for a month, so I missed it if you changed it. What was it before?
Midas wrote:
Watch this scene and see how he perfecly recovers himself and steals the ball:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxjfJqFxNGY

I experienced that the more subtle this is done the better it works..
I do like the clip, but I also agree that this is not ball stealing. Ball stealing is more meta than this. This was more like she tried to drive on him, but he didn't let her past, so she dribbled back out to the 3-point line. Good defense on that possession, but he didn't steal the ball and take it down to the other side of the court.

---

@Kidd - I'm potentially interested. I'll PM. Forget my situation for a minute - any chance of getting more detail of how it played out with your keeper? Story time?
Author:  peregrinus [ Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ball Stealing
Meraki wrote:
I actually feel like its unlcear who has the ball. Its just that I'm used to having complete possession from day 1, so being in uncertainty is new and different, and interesting. I see your point though. 8-)
Oh my, oh my.

That must be messing with your head.

I personally prefer this, the other way around.

So that they are never quite sure who has the ball, something tells them it is not them, however you do just enough to let them think they have now and then. While retaining firm hold on said ball.

Let them think they have the ball, do not remind them constantly that you have it, however when you do, you can do a subtle 'ta da' with the ball, then let it fade into the mist.

--

Of course, for those that will jump in, this is in certain situations.. Just as in others a blatant display of 'I have the ball, here it is' is called for..

Though even then, it is less 'i have the ball', more 'you dont have the ball' or 'where is this ball you say you have'
Author:  The Kidd!! [ Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ball Stealing
Yeah it's tough to put into words...but I guess it's kind of like ballroom dancing...no pun intended. :mrgreen:

You're leading as the man, but you still have to make micro, usually very subtle (spectators shouldn't be able to notice) adjustments to ensure that she stays in sync with you. The fact that you have to make adjustments at all shows that she has SOME influence on the proceedings...but you adjust with her in what appears to be a seamless, transparent manner to maintain order within the dynamic. Sometimes you might even let her lead for a second or two in order to re-sync...but even then it was YOUR call to do so and only YOU would know this. 8-)

Bottom line...it's fluid, dynamic and under constant flux. If you have to steal the ball, then you have to understand that whether she knows it or not, she will respond by always looking for an opportunity to regain possession. This is where it can be very interesting and fun or frustrating and annoying, depending on your personal perspective, if that makes sense. :geek:
Author:  peregrinus [ Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ball Stealing
Kidd: for some reason (you and I know why) your post really reminded me of the cat string theory thread :ugeek:

A dance is a very accurate description.
Author:  Meraki [ Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ball Stealing
Grinus wrote:
Oh my, oh my.

That must be messing with your head.
Haha. Quite fun really!
Kidd wrote:
You're leading as the man, but you still have to make micro, usually very subtle (spectators shouldn't be able to notice) adjustments to ensure that she stays in sync with you. The fact that you have to make adjustments at all shows that she has SOME influence on the proceedings...but you adjust with her in what appears to be a seamless, transparent manner to maintain order within the dynamic. Sometimes you might even let her lead for a second or two in order to re-sync...but even then it was YOUR call to do so and only YOU would know this. 8-)

Bottom line...it's fluid, dynamic and under constant flux. If you have to steal the ball, then you have to understand that whether she knows it or not, she will respond by always looking for an opportunity to regain possession. This is where it can be very interesting and fun or frustrating and annoying, depending on your personal perspective, if that makes sense. :geek:
I like. :D
Author:  roark [ Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ball Stealing
peregrinus wrote:
Kidd: for some reason (you and I know why) your post really reminded me of the cat string theory thread :ugeek:

A dance is a very accurate description.
Hmmm, :!: . Let me take a stab at this:

With cat & string, when the string is too difficult to catch (equivalent to staunchness or alternatively fake indifference) the cat loses interest. Same happens when the string is too available.

Thinking back on times when i've actually played the string game with cats, there's a kind of rhythm that develops. But this rhythm isn't steady or consistent or in any way 'mathematical'. You kinda have to 'feel' your way through it. (Of course there is ultimately a logic and science etc behind it, but possibly more advanced than what MOST of us consciously have access to). And whenever I eventually lost the 'feel' of the 'rhythm', that's when I either became too available or too difficult, with obvious results.

If you don't understand the science and all the permutations, variables etc etc, then ya hafta go with the flow.

2 other analogies also come to mind:

-The one GP Walsh uses (but he uses it in terms of letting go/allowing): riding the bike, where when you get it you intuitively feel balance, counterbalance, forward motion, and all the other variables at play, and instinctively balance them all.

-Those 2-man saws you once used as an analogy elsewhere on the forum: This one is probably closer to the subject of the thread. You pull, and the other person pushes. You push, and they pull. If you think only in terms of back and fro, you'd think that you're both sharing the "power" or ball 50/50. But if you're orchestrating the whole shebang and know what you're doing, you know when to push such that the other person will naturally pull, and you know when to gently 'tug' and the other person'll say "Cool, now i've got the ball" and they push. The ball appears to be in the hands of whoever's pushing at the time, but at a higher level, you actually have the ball ALL THE TIME, since you're subtly 'leading' each movement, whether you're actually pushing or pulling.

Incidentally, ego can fuck you up here (as it always does); the ego would want you to push and pull BLATANTLY all the time, and will want the other person to damn well know it too. And after a while they'll say "Fuck this shit", let go of the saw and find someone else to saw with.....

[Edit: additionally, when I refer to 'when to push' etc. this information comes from the gut, going with the flow, and letting go. Same with HOW to push, pull, 'tug', etc. Rabbit hole goes deep as fuck :lol: ]
Author:  Flow83 [ Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ball Stealing
roark wrote:
riding the bike, where when you get it you intuitively feel balance, counterbalance, forward motion, and all the other variables at play, and instinctively balance them all.
Side note, but I like this analogy for getting people in touch with "trusting the gut"

The amount of subtle balancing, counter balancing, and minute muscle adjustments to keep you on that bike is light years beyond what you could do if you had to THINK about each action.

Yet you're on that bike.

There's an intelligence at work that knows what to do. You don't know (mentally) HOW you are balancing but you can balance. That intelligence can handle a LOT more subtle, nuanced parts of life beyond just bike riding.

Next time you are trying to analyze some situation to death, sure you need to know more first, imagine yourself on the bike, thinking you need to understand how your inner ear works re: the balancing equation.

How did you learn to ride the bike? You knew what bike riding could look like, and you kept getting on the bike. That's ALL you "did." If you stay purely in analytical mode, distant observer, trying to put it all together, you're never getting on the bike. You WILL fall but once it's ingrained, well, you know what they say about riding a bike :ugeek:
Author:  Slim Titan [ Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ball Stealing
That's what I say about running up the alley.
Author:  Meraki [ Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ball Stealing
Good discussion. This has been helpful. Thanks everyone for your thoughts. 8-)
Author:  Rolan [ Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ball Stealing
peregrinus wrote:
I personally prefer this, the other way around.

So that they are never quite sure who has the ball, something tells them it is not them, however you do just enough to let them think they have now and then. While retaining firm hold on said ball.

Let them think they have the ball, do not remind them constantly that you have it, however when you do, you can do a subtle 'ta da' with the ball, then let it fade into the mist.

--

Of course, for those that will jump in, this is in certain situations.. Just as in others a blatant display of 'I have the ball, here it is' is called for..

Though even then, it is less 'i have the ball', more 'you dont have the ball' or 'where is this ball you say you have'

I've been contemplating this, and have come to the same conclusion but with added thoughts. The thing with possession is that it can never be equal. Ever. If you have the ball, it can range from 51%/49% to perhaps even 99%/1%(although that is unlikely). So there is always someone in power or higher/lower 'status' than the other. However, it's not always clear whom is where. One might presume it's the one in possession with the 'ball', yes?

There's a football team in England called Arsenal. Traditionally, or over the last decade atleast, they had a possession based philosophy. Technically that entailed neat, intricate, slow build up play through the middle with the hope of threading the ball through a tight defence and creating a scoring opportunity. Mentally it requires patience, concentration and often what seems like lateral play, sometimes having to pass from side to side which gives a meandering effect. The problem is that the slowness of this style does not suit their environment(their domestic league), largely because it gives the opposition time to reorganise and sit back themselves(and they usually do sit back).

They've won absolutely nothing for going on eight years.

This season has seen a significant change in their 'style', and hence their mentality. Instead they are consciously and purposefully ceding possession to the other team. Sure, they will maintain it should they be in a position to, but the majority of possession is actually given to the other team. Due to a new found solidity in their mental awareness, they no longer are clueless when out of possession, but instead remain compact, wait....wait.....wait, and when the opposition slips up, they break on the counter swiftly and mostly to devastating effect. It's like a three punch KO. What does this require? The exact same mental attributes of patience and concentration.

They're now top of the league and unbeaten domestically in 9 games.

So, I would go as far as to say that if they want to have the ball, let them have it. Let them believe it is theirs. Let them believe it is anything more than ephemeral....... let them believe there is a ball. I personally don't want to expend energy grappling with them for it.
Author:  Meraki [ Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ball Stealing
Rolan wrote:
So, I would go as far as to say that if they want to have the ball, let them have it. Let them believe it is theirs. Let them believe it is anything more than ephemeral....... let them believe there is a ball. I personally don't want to expend energy grappling with them for it.
I think its perfectly fine to give them the ball, but with the knowledge that you have the ability to just pick their pocket and steal the ball back pretty much any time you want to. Like playing ball in the park with a little kid - you give them the ball and let them run around with it and they have possession of the ball 98% of the time, but you know you could easily just swat it away from them whenever you want.

I also really really like the ballroom dance metaphor in this thread as well. Great way to look at it.
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