Natural Freedom

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:07 am 
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Posts: 2046
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Yudansha wrote:
I don't follow you here. I am NOT discussing this with her. Once I got that she wasn't interested, the subject of us becoming more than friends, or the state of our friendship, ceased altogether. In fact, only she has referred to it at all. She dropped this the other day, over the phone, in the middle of a lengthy conversation about a mutual interest: "its good we can't be together ..." I don't know why she thinks it "good" or whatever the hell was meant by that. I didn't ask, I just continued the discussion. Did it trigger internal shit? You betcha.
If she begins a relationship, it´s up to her.
If she ends a relationship , it´s up to her.

You never get to decide, EVER, who wants
to be in your life. That is their choice, not
yours. Your job is to choose consciously from
those who want to be there.

It is the reality of all relationships where YOU
have the power. It is the denial of this fact,
that is hurting you.

You must also realize that all relationships are
evanescent, they come to an end.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:10 am 
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Dali wrote:
:D
Yud... whatever you name. :)
Let me, I speak & write Japanese.

Yu Dan Sha 有段者 and means "a person who
has black belt." (martial arts term). 8-)

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:53 am 
Yudansha wrote:
Slim- I have, somewhat. It would piss me off and throw me into anger ... and I do not like anger. But its better than the other shit so yes ... I will take stock of that approach and analyse her in a cold and calculated way.


What I value in her... hmmm. Rather than list all the qualities I like about her, which is probably not what you are asking for anyway, I'll distill it down to this: My understanding of what you mean by x-factor, big time. A set of shared interests that border on unreal, that spurs a powerful intellectual connection. A similar set of values, or the way we judge the world. I'll have to think some more, but it boils down to the way I feel when interacting with her, as cliche as that is.
Wow when you think about her your mind turns to shit. Just read all the illogical bull you typed. It's about as illogical as tagging I did of each response.

1. Oh you would get ANGRY to analyze her in a logical manner and see her FLAWS?

B. Don't try to read my mind that your ego.

Kangaroo: You don't know what an X-factor is.

Number G: IF YOU HAD THE SAME VALUES YOU'D BE FUCKING HER.

Sky: the only thing you're judging are her tits. You should be stripping yourself of judgments. Seriously, that all you're doing. If you were truly focused on her judgments then you would be appalled at her thoughts because they're irrational.

Apocalypse: <---------That's what you're really thinking when you're with her. READ WHAT YOU WROTE. IT'S NOT EVEN ABOUT HER. IT'S ABOUT HOW YOU FEEL WHEN SHE'S IN YOUR VICINITY.

If this was really about all those things you think it's about then you would be concerned about how she is when she's with you.

Edit: Reality check. I just blew up the quoted part you wrote because you're in a fantasy land. There is no such thing as an unreal connection. You're just seducing yourself. That's what seduction is. If you had a real intellectual connection with her then you would have principled reasons for everything you do with her, but you don't.

Last word: when you finally come to grips with the fact that you're tooling out over her BODY like MOST other MEN then you'll get somewhere.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:10 am 
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@Jared:
Arigatou gozaimasu.

@Yamcha: :lol:
I digressed and projected a lil' too much in my post, :D but you're still caught in your own fantasies about her, as Slim pointed out.

I had one of those "womanitis?" 7 yrs. ago. I made the bitch the most beautiful queen in my mind, when in reality she was a experienced whore (peak game). She fucked half of the football team in her school, while I was thinking in giving her a rose and inviting her to a concert... Never talked to her tough, but that was not important... :lol: . The thing that was important, was the thing that was wrong in me. My delusions about her, and the whole game.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:07 am 
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Yudansha wrote:
What I value in her... hmmm. Rather than list all the qualities I like about her, which is probably not what you are asking for anyway, I'll distill it down to this: My understanding of what you mean by x-factor, big time. A set of shared interests that border on unreal, that spurs a powerful intellectual connection. A similar set of values, or the way we judge the world. I'll have to think some more, but it boils down to the way I feel when interacting with her, as cliche as that is.
From what you wrote, it doesn't mean She sees You as her X-factor...

Women don't see things the way guys do.

If she doesn't see you as her x-factor there isn't much you can do..

I knew many women who I had A set of shared interests with and a powerful intellectual connection and a similar set of values or the way we judge the world. Still, they didn't see me as their x-factor...

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"a sniper is the worst romancer, he never makes the first move"


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:18 am 
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@Yudansha, lots of reasons, but mostly cause I think I could and probably would. 8-)

Especially if it came up naturally in conversation like the one you mentioned. Bait i'd have grabbed to grouse about how she's making me feel. :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:39 am 
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There, Yudansha.

http://www.naturalfreedom.info/viewtopi ... 97&p=23511
peregrinus wrote:
StephenP wrote:
My rationale for this was a saying I heard once, that had a great impact on me. "Whenever you are unsure of how to act in a situation, Do nothing". Meaning allow yourself time to process, give yourself the space to let your gut react properly.
Indeed.
StephenP wrote:
I (very) loosely compare it to the social version of (what I envision) combat to be like. There was zero time for thought, everything done was on pure instinct alone (which unconsciously considers all past learnings. i.e. from reading this site inside and out). So many emotions and thoughts, far too many to consider them all, that you can ONLY react from your gut and nothing else.
This in my view is a very acurate analogy.
AND :

http://www.naturalfreedom.info/viewtopi ... 60&p=20160
peregrinus wrote:
Scottie Pimpin' wrote:
From my experience you can tell a woman whatever you think about her, as long as it's coming from a place of power.
When I talk about vulnerability, I'm talking about using it as an incentive for women to try harder to keep your attention, because they crave your approval.
These two combined are Kryptonite.

As always, it is not what you say, it is how you are when you say it.
The same sentence from two men can have radically differing effects on the same woman, in the same moment. Same words, different meanings.
GoldenBoy wrote:
coz in my views, as long as you come with the right mindset, there's no "bad things to say".
Agreed.
I have said and seen other people say some really outlandish stuff.. The mindset is key, where you are coming from.
-----

This one is just for my own purpose :( :shock: :ugeek:
Jared wrote:
If she begins a relationship, it´s up to her.
If she ends a relationship , it´s up to her.

You never get to decide, EVER, who wants
to be in your life. That is their choice, not
yours. Your job is to choose consciously from
those who want to be there.


It is the reality of all relationships where YOU
have the power. It is the denial of this fact,
that is hurting you.


You must also realize that all relationships are
evanescent, they come to an end.
PS : Also, Yudansha,
Quote:
Lots of variations on how to "Tao of Steve" girls panties off, or whatever. I get that
Tao of Steve :
Be DESIRELESS.
Be EXCELLENT.
Be GONE.

It's not so much gaming panties as I see it.

Priorities, that's all.

------

[sarcasm ?]And no, I'm not sad at all you didn't address my first comment :lol: [/sarcasm ?]

I'll inverse the first two as it should :

1. LET IT ALL GO.

2. DO WHAT YOU FEEL LIKE DOING.

PPS : I'D LOVE AN INTRODUCTION FROM YOU, I really like your style of writing and am curious of your 'journey' :ugeek: <- NO SARCASM !!!

_________________
"The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn."
Alvin Toffler


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:01 am 
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Posts: 276
Yudansha wrote:
Rolan- We have all heard the axiom that you never let someone know you are into them. If both parties play that game, how the hell do people ever get together? I can see, of course that I would have been better off to have not said it in this case, because of the result I got. But if she were in the same state of mind, I'd be at her house fucking her right now rather than here writing this. Or so I would like to believe. As to your suggestions, I get it. One problem, of course, is that if I do ignore her, she may clue into what's going on. I suppose its no matter if she does, so long as I don't say anything.
1. You don't talk to her about 'what's going in with you', i.e the emotional turmoil that her 'rejection' has caused within you, because it has nothing to do with her. It's yours to deal with.

2. You don' tell her 'We could be more than friends' because a) This ain't High School, and b) That is their job. The man who they need you to be does not do this.

3. It's not ignoring her, it's focusing on your life.

Reframe your mind, you won't understand what people are telling you until that happens.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:47 pm 
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Posts: 66
Rolan:
Quote:
1. You don't talk to her about 'what's going in with you', i.e the emotional turmoil that her 'rejection' has caused within you, because it has nothing to do with her. It's yours to deal with.
So far that is what I've done ... not talked to her about any of it.
Quote:
2. You don' tell her 'We could be more than friends' because a) This ain't High School, and b) That is their job. The man who they need you to be does not do this.
This is where I get lost. I'm supposed to not say what I want ... just clam up and let her run the show? Is this a 'method' being employed, like being/acting indifferent?
Quote:
Reframe your mind, you won't understand what people are telling you until that happens.
That's why I'm here and bothering all of you, so I'm all in. Question then is, reframe if to what?

Goldenboy:
Lots of interesting stuff, essentially boiling down to saying what you want, but doing so from the right state of mind. What I had happen is based on past wounding or trauma, most likely. The obsession, if that's what it is, or limerence, or whatever the hell it is, was and is involuntary. THAT'S the current mindset. I get that if my mindset was one of power (for lack of a better word here) I probably could have said anything. The next step is to get to that mindset.

Re your first comment, the reason I didn't address it was simply that I didn't have any particular answer. It was so general, at least to me. I can't let it all go, that's why I'm here, and doing what I want to do caused some problems, I am not in my right mind, although this conversation had helped immensely. (I'll post in the intro section in a while, thanks for the request).

Quote:
@Yudansha, lots of reasons, but mostly cause I think I could and probably would. 8-)

Especially if it came up naturally in conversation like the one you mentioned. Bait i'd have grabbed to grouse about how she's making me feel. :mrgreen:
Oh, I COULD ... if might me nice to get off my chest, but I think the time to do it would be AFTER I am rid of the emotional reactions I had, or at least free of their power. "grabbed the grouse" ...? Can you explain that for me?

sniper: I realize that, for starters I have to read up on "x-factor." but as has been pointed out, I am obviously not hers.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:18 pm 
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Posts: 66
Slim Titan wrote:
Yudansha wrote:
Slim- I have, somewhat. It would piss me off and throw me into anger ... and I do not like anger. But its better than the other shit so yes ... I will take stock of that approach and analyse her in a cold and calculated way.


What I value in her... hmmm. Rather than list all the qualities I like about her, which is probably not what you are asking for anyway, I'll distill it down to this: My understanding of what you mean by x-factor, big time. A set of shared interests that border on unreal, that spurs a powerful intellectual connection. A similar set of values, or the way we judge the world. I'll have to think some more, but it boils down to the way I feel when interacting with her, as cliche as that is.
Wow when you think about her your mind turns to shit. Just read all the illogical bull you typed. It's about as illogical as tagging I did of each response.

1. Oh you would get ANGRY to analyze her in a logical manner and see her FLAWS?
I'm not totally deluded, I realize we all have flaws.

B. Don't try to read my mind that your ego.
My ego? Methinks your ego just stepped in the way. All I have is the information presented in your post and my best guess about how to reply.

Kangaroo: You don't know what an X-factor is.
Quite true, although I have an idea. There is a thread in there somewhere where I will spend some time reading about it.

Number G: IF YOU HAD THE SAME VALUES YOU'D BE FUCKING HER.
Maybe I didn't communicate what I meant here. I meant the manner in which I, we, judge the world. Ethical issues and that kind of thing. I have similar values that way with lots of people, and I am not nor do I wish to fuck them.

Sky: the only thing you're judging are her tits. You should be stripping yourself of judgments. Seriously, that all you're doing. If you were truly focused on her judgments then you would be appalled at her thoughts because they're irrational.
My first reaction to this is "bullshit." But after thinking about it for a while, there is something to your assertion.

Apocalypse: <---------That's what you're really thinking when you're with her. READ WHAT YOU WROTE. IT'S NOT EVEN ABOUT HER. IT'S ABOUT HOW YOU FEEL WHEN SHE'S IN YOUR VICINITY.

If this was really about all those things you think it's about then you would be concerned about how she is when she's with you.
What do you mean? I mean, I am/was concerned, but for my sake not hers. Its all for my sake, the whole time I was involved with those conversations it was about me. We do have a considerable amount of shared interests, but I see that it was always about me getting something from her, and not just pussy.

Edit: Reality check. I just blew up the quoted part you wrote because you're in a fantasy land. There is no such thing as an unreal connection. You're just seducing yourself. That's what seduction is. If you had a real intellectual connection with her then you would have principled reasons for everything you do with her, but you don't.
"Principled reasons." Unless my previous statement addressed that.

Last word: when you finally come to grips with the fact that you're tooling out over her BODY like MOST other MEN then you'll get somewhere.
What I realized after thinking about your questions was 2 things. 1, that one thing I "valued" about her was how it would be while being in the company of other people, like, how having her would make me look. That's pure ego, and I never came to full grips with it. I am now. 2, I asked myself, if I met here now for the FIRST time (rather than re-acquainting myself with her, after over ten years of seeing her, would I be feeling the same way? I was pretty into her back then, and yes, largely for her body. We all were at that time :mrgreen: But the lingering thoughts were really caused by all the other shit. The litany of similar opinions, interest, passions, etc. That was the glue that held the thing I had for her in place. I, like most men and women, forget about someone pretty easily if they are JUST a pretty face. The answer to my question is no. I might like her, etc. but its obvious that its because of the past that I got into this now.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:30 pm 
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That whole thing really leaps out to me re: why don't I tell her or is it a 'technique' (it's not)

Two people who are sexually attracted to each other do not need to have a discussion about it for "verification" any more than two people who want to kill each other would.

Not to be harsh but seeing it as "I either talk to her literally or nothing ever happens ... how do people ever get together?" suggests a lot of disconnect from being able to feel, observe and intuit the dynamic, as well as inexperience - ie doesn't sound like you've gotten together with a woman where it was just 'understood' and nothing needed to be said. Such a thing is natural, not exceptional. Not saying things does not = not doing anything.

As I see it it is on you to feel/observe the dynamic and move it forward with the appropriate action. Fortunately, all of this is also your nature, you actually do know what to do but it is in the gut. The dynamic between you is already there. You should already have some sense of what that is. If so, how does she know you are interested in acting on it? When you act on it. My $0.02 (speaking to that sentiment more than commenting on any specifics of this interaction, your overall view of these things is more important anyway IMHO)

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:42 pm 
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Flow83 wrote:
That whole thing really leaps out to me re: why don't I tell her or is it a 'technique' (it's not)

Two people who are sexually attracted to each other do not need to have a discussion about it for "verification" any more than two people who want to kill each other would.

Not to be harsh but seeing it as "I either talk to her literally or nothing ever happens ... how do people ever get together?" suggests a lot of disconnect from being able to feel, observe and intuit the dynamic, as well as inexperience - ie doesn't sound like you've gotten together with a woman where it was just 'understood' and nothing needed to be said. Such a thing is natural, not exceptional. Not saying things does not = not doing anything.

As I see it it is on you to feel/observe the dynamic and move it forward with the appropriate action. Fortunately, all of this is also your nature, you actually do know what to do but it is in the gut. The dynamic between you is already there. You should already have some sense of what that is. If so, how does she know you are interested in acting on it? When you act on it. My $0.02 (speaking to that sentiment more than commenting on any specifics of this interaction, your overall view of these things is more important anyway IMHO)
Of course I have hooked up with women without stating what was happening first,, or getting verification. In those cases, I was in a far better mindset, no fear that things were going to unravel, no fear of rejection, so it just flowed naturally. At this time, with this particular woman, acting on it would be totally inappropriate, as she has stated that we "can't be together" because we are not compatible (according to our horoscopes :roll: ). To make some kind of "move" now would backfire. She would have to make it obvious that she wanted something like that. Not gonna happen.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:52 pm 
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That's great then - plenty have not had that experience - I got a different impression from your phrasing and questions.

In that case my mind just jumps to "so why are you fixated here just move on" so I am of no use :)

I will say this though. I would re-examine your approach a "trying to let it go" while you are in turmoil. Telling yourself you don't care when you do care is basically distraction and pain avoidance. Instead confront the pain directly, look at what you feel is lacking and what you had projected on to her that you think would alleviate it. The projection is an illusion but the pain is real. Only way out is through. Even logical analysis can be a way of avoiding the visceral experience --

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:18 pm 
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Flow83 wrote:
That's great then - plenty have not had that experience - I got a different impression from your phrasing and questions.

In that case my mind just jumps to "so why are you fixated here just move on" so I am of no use :)

I will say this though. I would re-examine your approach a "trying to let it go" while you are in turmoil. Telling yourself you don't care when you do care is basically distraction and pain avoidance. Instead confront the pain directly, look at what you feel is lacking and what you had projected on to her that you think would alleviate it. The projection is an illusion but the pain is real. Only way out is through. Even logical analysis can be a way of avoiding the visceral experience --
You're right where I am, and that is what got me here in the first place. Like I said to golden boy, I cannot let it go. Although it is getting better, largely from these conversations, confronting the painful reality that my ego is the main cause of all this. But not being able to let it go and having to feel such turmoil is enough to get you to try anything, even the RIGHT thing, to alleviate the suffering. The only way out is, indeed, through, shitty though that is.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:48 am 
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Re-arranging: I'd have grabbed the bait. To grouse. Complain, bitch, moan etc.

However you want to do it or say it. That does not matter imo. Wanting to do it a certain way or from a place of 'power' or mindset shows attachment to outcome I think. :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 3:24 am 
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ahk wrote:
Re-arranging: I'd have grabbed the bait. To grouse. Complain, bitch, moan etc.

However you want to do it or say it. That does not matter imo. Wanting to do it a certain way or from a place of 'power' or mindset shows attachment to outcome I think. :mrgreen:
Hell yeah I'm attached to the outcome. That's one reason why I don't tell her ... I really don't want to hear the sympathetic "I'm sorry you feel that way" speech. Down the road, god willing, when I stop caring what she thinks, telling her what I went through and getting that speech won't have the same sting. I've already heard her tell me how "we can't be together" enough, and lost enough sleep. Time to return to a more balanced psychological state for a while. Right now, as I sit here, there is still plenty of attachment going on. I think I'll sit with it longer before saying anything ... then reconsider.

So answer me this, then. What GOOD do you see possibly coming from telling her?


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 4:27 am 
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No, I changed my mind. You are totally right. Absolutely no good can come of such an action. Why you could totally crumble and shatter in the face of your fears and desires, leaving you a shell of a man awaiting an inglorious end to a miserable life, thus marring a perfectly nice weekend when you could be enjoying a peaceful round of golf instead.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 5:05 am 
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ahk wrote:
No, I changed my mind. You are totally right. Absolutely no good can come of such an action. Why you could totally crumble and shatter in the face of your fears and desires, leaving you a shell of a man awaiting an inglorious end to a miserable life, thus marring a perfectly nice weekend when you could be enjoying a peaceful round of golf instead.
This may sound petty, but I wish it on you at least once. Maybe your snarkiness would calm down a bit. I already know what her position is. Again, (maybe a real answer this time) what good would it do to tell her? It obviously does her no good, I don't see what it would do for me either.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 5:48 am 
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Shit, no dice eh? :lol:

How about doing it for bad reasons then? It's gonna totally guilt her into having sex with you. :D

Wait, or is that not a good outcome? :|


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 5:52 am 
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ahk wrote:
Shit, no dice eh? :lol:

How about doing it for bad reasons then? It's gonna totally guilt her into having sex with you. :D

Wait, or is that not a good outcome? :|
OK you talked me into it. haha


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