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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 2:16 am 
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The last time I had a platonic female friend was when I was still rollin' with LittleMonster! back in the day. Aside from some nasty bumps in the road, we had a decent relationship and she was a supportive friend. However, I wasn't able to be honest with myself about my attraction to her, and that ultimately lead to some problems and foul emotions. Because of the complications that arose from from such self-deception, I decided that it would be best if I refused to become platonic friends with any woman from then on (outside of relatives or women well beyond my age).

I've been associating with a woman for a couple of weeks. Things were going super smoothly, and all our stats seemed to match up nicely. No discernible dysfunction from what I could tell, and I can usually smell that shit from a mile away. She was super interested. Not quite x-factor level, but still high. I quite fancied her myself. We conversed via Skype quite a bit, I'd say about 2 hours a day on average most days of the week. Really good conversations. Probably the best I've had with a woman. I was honest and upfront about everything including my non-platonic intentions and my eventual departure from the country. I led the interactions and made it clear that it was my way or the highway. I could tell that she didn't really like the idea that I was leaving because of some things she said, but she still went along with everything.

We went on a date with last weekend, and it went really well. She messaged me a couple of times to tell me how excited she was to meet me and that she was really curious about how I would be in person. The area where I live is really beautiful, especially this time of the year, so I told her that I wanted to go on a walk. So, we met at a place nearby and went on a walk, eventually sitting down at the dog park to the play with other people's dogs. Got slobbered on hardcore by this one pooch that ran up on me! Anyway, conversation and body language was super good and everything went as well as one could reasonably expect from a first date.

We continued to talk throughout the week on Skype, but after we finalized the plans for our date, she didn't contact me again. Bear in mind that she initiated almost every instance of contact between us, so this silence was very unusual. I thought that she was probably trying to play coy because she had hinted once that she isn't really used to initiating with guys.

When I woke up today, I checked my E-mail and got this confession:
Quote:
As it turns out, I'm now seeing someone. We can still hang out tonight if you want, but it will be just as friends.
Can't say I was really surprised. I kind of slapped myself on the head like 'Ah, of course! That explains the sudden silence.' Still, I was pretty disappointed. It's rare for me to meet a girl that I actually like. I don't meet many women as it is, and I have pretty stringent filters. Well, despite the fact that I liked her, I had to refuse her friendzone invitation.
Quote:
Firstly, I appreciate the fact that you were able to be honest with me.

Unfortunately, a platonic friendship between us is absolutely not possible. Like not drinking and being a vegan, not having platonic female friends is one of my strongest convictions. I believe such relationships are dishonest.

I can honestly say that I enjoyed getting to know you. I wish you the best.
I was disappointed in this sudden turn of events, but I was proud of myself for sticking to my convictions. I told her from the very beginning that being platonic wasn't going to happen. I wondered if maybe her friendzone invitation might have been some form of female testing, but I just can't be bothered with that. More important to stick to my guns than to pass her test if that was the case. Besides, what was I gonna do? Sit around with her and wait for her relationship with this other fella to dissolve? Fuck that. My beta orbiter days are long since over. I'm either the star player or I ain't on your team. Period.

My convictions are very important to me, and they are tested constantly. The friendzone is place I will never enter again, no matter what. Such self-deception is unacceptable in my book.

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-Thoreau's Walden


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 2:48 am 
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I don't disagree with your refusal to hang out with her "as friends", but it seems like it might be a bit limiting for you to make a rule about never being platonic friends with a woman. Its not to say that it will happen often, or even at all, but the moment you make a vow, you have just put yourself in a cage of your own creation.

Plus, take this whole friendzone idea to the next level. Try putting a girl in the friendzone...

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 3:02 am 
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Meraki wrote:
...the moment you make a vow, you have just put yourself in a cage of your own creation.


I totally agree, but don't forget that I also create the cage's terms and conditions of entry. The rule basically only applies to women to whom I'm attracted. Even if it's just a sliver. If I can honestly say that I don't even have a modicum of attraction for a particular woman, I have no problem being platonic with her because I'm not pretending to not be attracted to her or otherwise bullshitting myself.
Meraki wrote:
Plus, take this whole friendzone idea to the next level. Try putting a girl in the friendzone...
I like this idea... Care to elaborate a bit more? Perhaps, share an anecdote?

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-Thoreau's Walden


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:55 am 
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Too staunch good sir.

There is no cage, there is no friendzone. 8-)

Graciously accept being friends, she initiated it when she realizes its a mistake it will be up to her to fix it.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 5:22 am 
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Altair wrote:
Graciously accept being friends, she initiated it when she realizes its a mistake it will be up to her to fix it.
He initiated it not her.
Quote:
I was honest and upfront about everything including my non-platonic intentions and my eventual departure from the country. I led the interactions and made it clear that it was my way or the highway.
Quote:
She messaged me a couple of times to tell me how excited she was to meet me and that she was really curious about how I would be in person.
Quote:
I told her that I wanted to go on a walk. So, we met at a place nearby and went on a walk, eventually sitting down at the dog park to the play with other people's dogs. Got slobbered on hardcore by this one pooch that ran up on me! Anyway, conversation and body language was super good and everything went as well as one could reasonably expect from a first date.
Quote:
she had hinted once that she isn't really used to initiating with guys.

H offered her sex but disapointed her


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:44 am 
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Altair wrote:
Too staunch good sir.
I was thinking the same thing. But that's convictions for you. One sometimes must be strict and staunch in order to stay true to himself.
Altair wrote:
There is no cage, there is no friendzone. 8-)
I think I have some idea of what you're scratching at, but could you elaborate?
rant wrote:
He initiated it not her.

H offered her sex but disappointed her
I think you might be right.

However, I still think I did the right thing because:

1. To jump her bones quickly would not have been congruent with my character

2. I wanted to feel more comfortable with her physically first.

3. I wanted the relationship, whatever it would have been, to be under my own terms.

I wanted things to be under my terms, and I wanted to pace our interactions. I knew she wanted sex as soon as possible, but I didn't. Early on in our interactions, she asked me what wanted from her and I told her "sex and companionship". If figured that since I'd made it clear that I wasn't going to be platonic with her that I was free to take the reigns and take things slow without risk of being friendzoned. I see now that my flaw was that I was arrogant enough to believe that I was super hot shit and that she would wait around for something that she could easily get from someone else (the penis). Also, I totally overlooked the fact that most people these days don't enjoy delayed gratification.

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-Thoreau's Walden


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:28 am 
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Why would you take her out on a what seems like very platonic date while telling her you wanted a non platonic and short term fling? You probably just confused the heck out of her with your words and actions being so different.

Not being able to get physical early seems like a problem you need to confront. If she got what she wanted, she might have indulged you on your other requirements. Now she seems to be offering what you showed you wanted more ie companionship, having met her own needs elsewhere. Blaming things on a need for gratification sounds like avoiding the issue.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:58 am 
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No cage no friendship -> Treat people accordingly. (to be simple)
If you have no particular agenda, you'll be more inclined to accept the flow without putting a label on it.

Coz she surely have friendshiped you to see how you reacted and see if you were congruent.
And in time she'd have to upgrade the relationship from friendship to bf / fuck buddy / ... and if you want to take revenge (or if you really have learnt to like it) you could become the one saying, 'I prefer we stay friends'.

Hence try putting people in the friendzone (righteously / honestly, not as a tactic), to see some women try to get out of it somehow (think Patrice O'Neal and his gf 'You're so pathetic and in need of a true friend, that I'm willing to be a friend for you to teach you life" then she proceded to seduce him) (paraphrased)

Two things never to forget (at least that are now deeply ingrained in my brain) :
- YOU ARE A TREE, women are birds that perch on your branch(es). You don't care what their intentions are.
- BE LIKE WATER, adapt to your environment, coz you can't fight the flow, and all roads ultimately lead to ocean, the difference is in your experience/resistance of it.



All that to say, long time no see rant :mrgreen:

[ img ]

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:38 am 
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The Pokemon Trainer wrote:
Early on in our interactions, she asked me what wanted from her and I told her "sex and companionship".
The Pokemon Trainer wrote:
I knew she wanted sex as soon as possible, but I didn't.
The Pokemon Trainer wrote:
I see now that my flaw was that I was arrogant enough to believe that I was super hot shit and that she would wait around for something that she could easily get from someone else (the penis).
The Pokemon Trainer wrote:
Quote:
As it turns out, I'm now seeing someone. We can still hang out tonight if you want, but it will be just as friends.
Interesting learning experience PMT

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:28 pm 
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I think found yet another fatal flaw:

I had a certain image in my mind of how I wanted things to go between us, but I was too focused on what I wanted. I forgot about the importance of remaining indifferent, being in the moment and going with the flow. I even if I have the reins, attachment to the outcome is still possible, but I was too foolish to realize it sooner. I was too focused on how I wanted things to be rather than how things were. And, like a child, as soon as things went awry, I pushed the self-destruct button.

Indeed, there is no cage and there is no friend zone. And if there is, it should be irrelevant to one who knows true indifference.

The tree metaphor makes perfect sense, now that I think on it. Fruit and leaves grow and wither, birds come and go, but the tree remains in place, accepting rain, snow or shine. It seeks not but to stand tall and grow.

Perhaps I will have to dismiss this conviction of not having platonic relationships.

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“I learned this, at least, by my experiment; that if one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours. . . ."

-Thoreau's Walden


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:39 pm 
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peregrinus wrote:
Interesting learning experience PMT
Indeed. I can feel my powers growing.

To be honest, I was pretty disappointed before. However, now I'm actually almost glad that this didn't work out because I've learned so much from it.

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“I learned this, at least, by my experiment; that if one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours. . . ."

-Thoreau's Walden


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:44 pm 
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Altair wrote:
Too staunch good sir.

There is no cage, there is no friendzone. 8-)

Graciously accept being friends, she initiated it when she realizes its a mistake it will be up to her to fix it.
She didn't, he did. And like a cock-sure Padawan he forgot himself and unleashed his lightsaber too soon. I'm not convinced he even needed to unleash it in the first place. All she needs to know is that it's there.

Otherwise I agree;
Quote:
The one serious conviction that a man should have is that nothing should be taken too seriously - Samuel Butler
Conviction's oft lead to a trigger being pulled too hastily. Just because you like someone, it's not entirely necessary to shout yours from the rooftop. If they really are convictions you don't have to explain them because all your acts will flow in accordance with them.
Quote:
Don't explain yourself so much. Sorcerers say that in every explanation there is a hidden apology. So, when you are explaining why you cannot do this or that, you're really apologizing for your shortcomings, hoping that whoever is listening to you will have the kindness to understand them - Don Juan
You owed her no such explanation.


Last edited by Leo on Sun Aug 04, 2013 1:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:47 pm 
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PMT, I think you might be looking at the finger instead of the moon. For instance, would this question of having platonic friendships or not even arise if you were following the advice here on being your own best friend?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:59 pm 
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I would seriously ponder Ahk's question and look at why you even have a 'conviction' about this in the first place, and Leo's comment about it being congruent through your actions and not needing to be said. One is staying true to yourself. The other is more like trying to prove a point, overcompensating for something going on internally hoping to mask it or justify it by external behavior.

I get it about making a conviction when it is about addressing something specific to you-- for example if you are trying to quit smoking then 'staunch' things like not being around friends who smoke for a while, but this seems to be about some conceptual idea. The true emotional 'stuff' going on inside is leaking out all over the place in this post/story, it doesn't matter what terms you use to color it.
The Pokemon Trainer wrote:
We conversed via Skype quite a bit, I'd say about 2 hours a day on average most days of the week.
This is so unfathomable to me I can barely even imagine it, on more levels than one. This was before realizing it was someone you never met in person. I wouldn't even know where to begin. This was almost a jarring thing for me to read and noone else has even mentioned it so perhaps it's just me :o

The question to me is, if in your mind you were firmly doing "no plutonic relationships" what do you call a woman you talk to for 2 hours a day that you aren't 'dating'?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 1:09 pm 
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The Pokemon Trainer wrote:
We conversed via Skype quite a bit, I'd say about 2 hours a day on average most days of the week.
Quote:
This is so unfathomable to me I can barely even imagine it, on more levels than one. This was before realizing it was someone you never met in person. I wouldn't even know where to begin. This was almost a jarring thing for me to read and noone else has even mentioned it so perhaps it's just me :o

The question to me is, if in your mind you were firmly doing "no plutonic relationships" what do you call a woman you talk to for 2 hours a day that you aren't 'dating'?
An excellent catch, Flow. I didn't even see that part, but now I have...

Plutonic? Well I suppose we're all wading through the underworld in some way or other :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 1:19 pm 
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Leo wrote:
Plutonic? Well I suppose we're all wading through the underworld in some way or other :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Pluto's daughters are definitely not the 'long walks on the beach type' !!

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 1:47 pm 
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Leo wrote:

Conviction's oft lead to a trigger being pulled too hastily. Just because you like someone, it's not entirely necessary to shout yours from the rooftop. If they are really convictions, you don't have to explain them because all your acts will flow in accordance with them.
I think you are right. At least in the instance of the conviction in question.
Leo wrote:
Quote:
Don't explain yourself so much. Sorcerers say that in every explanation there is a hidden apology. So, when you are explaining why you cannot do this or that, you're really apologizing for your shortcomings, hoping that whoever is listening to you will have the kindness to understand them.
I like this quote. I will keep it in mind.

Leo wrote:
You owed her no such explanation.
I completely agree.

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“I learned this, at least, by my experiment; that if one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours. . . ."

-Thoreau's Walden


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 2:19 pm 
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ahk wrote:
Why would you take her out on a what seems like very platonic date while telling her you wanted a non platonic and short term fling? You probably just confused the heck out of her with your words and actions being so different.
Yes, I can see how that would be very confusing her. I foolishly thought that was that since I was upfront about my intentions and that I had her eating out of my hand, that I could pretty much lead however I wanted, and that it didn't matter if the actual activity was platonic or not. I thought that since it was clear that sex was going to happen at some point there was no need to bring it up after that. But, as it turns out, it's stupid to charge $10.00 for a hot dog when the vendor across the street is selling 'em for $0.50.
ahk wrote:
Not being able to get physical early seems like a problem you need to confront. If she got what she wanted, she might have indulged you on your other requirements. Now she seems to be offering what you showed you wanted more ie companionship, having met her own needs elsewhere. Blaming things on a need for gratification sounds like avoiding the issue.
Yeah, I also underestimated how much she wanted sex. She sometimes asked about me leaving the country, and I thought that was her voicing her desire for more than just a fling, so I thought sex was secondary to her.

Oh, maybe that's a mirror.

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“I learned this, at least, by my experiment; that if one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours. . . ."

-Thoreau's Walden


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 3:03 pm 
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Flow and some of the others helped me to think on a deeper level about the issue.

I Skyped with her frequently and took her out on a platonic date, thinking that it didn't really matter that those things were banal because our intentions were already made clear. And yet, hypocritically, when she wants to make s'mores at her house "just as friends" I suddenly decide that's too platonic? That's not rational.

If our intentions are already expressed honestly, what difference to actions on the surface make? Even if she pretends we're "just friends" on the surface, would both know what's really going on underneath, right? If I've already been honest, I don't see what wrong with playing pretend in the meantime.

So, why did I react to her proposal the way I did? Defense mechanism, I guess. I still don't really enjoy being rejected, even though it really wasn't an actual rejection. Strange, huh?

It's all too familiar, now that I think of it. It's my old demon: Abandonment Issues.

I thought I had hammered it out, mostly. I stopped putting up barriers and I became more open to people. But here he is again...

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“I learned this, at least, by my experiment; that if one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours. . . ."

-Thoreau's Walden


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 3:07 pm 
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GoldenBoy wrote:
Treat people accordingly.
This rule encompasses far more than I previously thought.

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“I learned this, at least, by my experiment; that if one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours. . . ."

-Thoreau's Walden


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