Natural Freedom

Kidd hammered it again yesterday on my Rosebudd comment ...

Link : http://www.naturalfreedom.info/viewtopi ... 375#p33375

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"The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn."
Alvin Toffler

Actions speak louder than words.

Did your actions match up to your words.

From what you typed, I would say not.

In that case, which is she meant to believe?

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In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.

Well, from her perspective she was probably expecting me to be a lot more forward sexually.

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“I learned this, at least, by my experiment; that if one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours. . . ."

-Thoreau's Walden

Link?

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“I learned this, at least, by my experiment; that if one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours. . . ."

-Thoreau's Walden

Whatever it was before, it's definitely platonic now. She's not pretending anything and doesn't have to.

But when life gives you lemons, you can make lemonade. She's offered friendship and you can make use of that like girls usually do to guys. Take out all of your issues and emotions with her, let her be your emotional tampon, talk about all the stuff that you haven't told anyone else. One or both of you should be bawling in tears at the end of it. Start with your abandonment issues and end with whatever hangups you got about sex. She probably already knows or has an inkling of it anyway. Talk just to let it out and not to find solutions, that part should be purely yours. Just be clear that all this would not 'get her back' in anyway.

Man, I go away for a few hours, and the thread blows up.

Great insights PMT. I'm sure you're already doing it, but definitely come back an re-read this thread several times. You will continue to find useful things in analyzing what you yourself wrote, as well as what others have said.
Excellent - you're seeing it. When you limit yourself in some way, you put imaginary bars around yourself, but they are purely in your imagination and don't really exist. That includes the vow, but also even the idea of a 'friendzone'. Can you show me the friendzone? Is it a box painted on the ground that you are forced at gunpoint to stand in? Or does it exist only in your mind...
Nice GB. You summed it up well. Only thing I can add to it is that you don't put your label on them - you don't go tell them "you are in the friendzone." You just act as you are going to act (ie. in a friendly but non-romantic way), and you let them put whatever label they want on it. It can be helpful to do what Patrice did in explicitly telling his gf that she is pathetic and in need of a true friend, but you have to act appropriately first. Words must be congruent with actions. Not the other way around.
She called your bluff, and you folded.
"Congruent with your character" - can you show me your character, or is that a concept that only exists in your mind, just like the friendzone? Another box you put yourself inside?

Trying to be something (or of a certain character) is not being it. I can tell you I'm on hunger strike until so and so does such and such, but if I'm stuffing my face with potato chips while I tell you I'm on hunger strike, my words aren't going to mean very much. Actions speak louder than words. Your behavior is what is really going on and is plain for all to see - 'character' is imaginary.
The tree metaphor is probably my favorite metaphor. It is such a perfect way to describe it.
Excellent!
And what would be the benefit of doing this?

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"The society gives you a map; I give you only freedom. The society gives you character, I give you only consciousness. The society teaches you to live a conformist life ... I give you an invitation to go on an adventure." - Osho

Pretty much the same benefit girls get from it. There must be a reason they do it so often

And that reason would be?

Saying "because girls do it" doesn't seem to me to be a very good rational to do something...

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"The society gives you a map; I give you only freedom. The society gives you character, I give you only consciousness. The society teaches you to live a conformist life ... I give you an invitation to go on an adventure." - Osho

Hardcore version is to do it with a bunch of male bartenders. Who then all proceed to point and laugh. . Let's just say I don't recommend _that_

They probably just like making lemonade or something

No - it's too late for that. And even if it wasn't, he still wouldn't be getting what he wanted and simply indulging in his 'issues' instead. Further weakened.

The least PKT can do now is finish how he started.
PKT made himself irrevocably clear and should stick to his 'conviction' for now, even if he chooses to drop it in future.

She may have been seeing someone else, or she may not have. A convenient excuse which matters little either way. You walked into the 'friendzone' by, as I believe Altair eluded to, giving friendzone a context to thrive in, and acting in disscordance with what you believed was a 'Pimp-Tight' mentality. In essence, you were too rigid and yet too available. Too much ego. Had you stacked enough evidence before handing your illustrious schlong out like it was a leaf in the wind? Had she even proven herself worthy...
Law 3 - The 48 laws of power. Concealing your intentions does not have to imply dishonesty. At some point you have to stop giving yourself away. If you want to play the upfront and honest game, then I suggest you put your red pills away and head over to Natty Game. Know your battleground.

Yup, I agree that that she's not coming back anytime soon. That's why I suggest making good use of her offer. I'll repeat again, not as a way to 'get her back'.

Women play the subterfuge/power game better than men, most men lose. Upfront and completely fucking honest allows me the luxury of a clear conscience and nights filled with peaceful sleep. No game beats those rewards.

I understood that, but my point is clear - He already declined the offer and should therefore finish how he started no matter what.

If there's one thing I've learnt it's that this is an inviolate rule.
Who said anything about a game?

You are speaking as though the fact that you guys stated "sexual intentions" on skype means anything, as though it were the same thing as if you were already having regular sex with her.

Seems like you also took the fact that she said something like "Just as friends" at face value -- I hope you realize that none of this means anything. If we were to do a 'show of hands' for how many times we have all heard 'not looking for anything' or 'just hang out some time' etc only to lead to immediate sex, or girls saying overtly sexual things that actually meant nothing, we'd probably be looking at 100%

This may come off harsh but i'm fairly passionate on the topic and hate to see men do it to themselves so here is my take:

You two were not ANYTHING until you met in person.

It was in all likelihood an hour+ per day projection fest of you two on each other on the phone and the emotional hit of the whole thing. You were NOT in a 'sexually charged relationship' and to me, this cannot be described in terms of something that was one thing with a girl that turned into another thing. It wasn't an actual thing.

Probably 10 minutes of the actual face to face interaction is all that is required because then you are dealing with a real human being and their energy right in front of you.

I don't know how this could ever happen but imagine it hypothetically.

You get in some argument with some dude over the internet and skype for two hours every day talking about how much you disagree and how it's all set an agreed upon: you're going to fight and you're going to kick his ass when you meet!!

Then you show up and he's a total pussy and can't make eye contact, clearly does not want to fight, you could kill him in one punch, and he is sobbing.

Do you say 'oh wow what happened, he was such a tough strong dude and now he's not' or do you say OH you're not at all what you presented. Do you think 'well but surely we were going to fight because we SAID we would?'

Now that is extreme and i'm not saying you were the equivalent of that guy but the analogy stands:

ALL of the 2 hours per day is, quite literally, irrelevant and completely obliterated within a pretty short time of a face to face interaction. Once you are dealing face to face with the person it is essentially like starting over, except there is a built in potential to be instantly seen as a bullshitter for what you presented in your words/profile/whatever.

Have you heard of these stories of people who 'chat online' for like YEARS and then they meet in person and it's instant fail?

Ever email or have correspondence with someone in a professional context for example and then you actually meet after all the emailing/planning/whatever?

Now the real reason for the emphasis to me is, you are a man and therefore your time is inherently valuable. Consider what can be accomplished in 2 hours per day of focused investment of almost any goal/skill/etc and compare ROI.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTXz8xMaJi4

A joy to read Flow83

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In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.

@Leo, you did, in your post

I have to say i'm now iffy on that rule. Hmm.

Semantics, ahk. In my experience, finishing how I start has always been an inviolate rule. When I don't abide, I lose. When I do abide, I win. With or without the girl, I win.

Hey Flow, don't knock the skype sex thing till you tried it man. I mean what is one to do if the guy is under house arrest with no visitors and the woman is oceans away on a different continent? Are you really gonna make love wait? Or are you gonna make the best of grainy images and your imagination and dildo off to the guy doing naked push ups and yoga who's jacking off to the girl trying to fit her ass on screen?

Btw, true story, told to me by the woman

Edit: Bonus points if you guessed that the guy was under house arrest for domestic violence and abuse!

@Leo, I've changed quite a bit in my life, seemingly for the better for the most part. Not going to let a relationship stand in the way of that, wouldn't want to straitjacket myself. My rule on honesty seems more reliable to me, so if the two conflict, i'd break on the other one.

Thanks!
Hey how dare you assume I'm not the guy in that story!
Haha yes good point, I can't knock it if I haven't tried it

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTXz8xMaJi4