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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 8:55 am 
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I was at the chinese takeaway to order some food and had me some nice clothes on, I never went in there like this, the person at the counter who's usually standoffish when I go in there was smiling at me with delight (acutal delight, none of that fake Zan shit).

Anyways the place is small but empty except for me so she comes over, bends down and moves some stuff and readjusts the table next to me, she comes back and does the same thing then she looks at me and comments that I've been waiting for awhile for my food and I'm like 'it's ok it's only been a couple minutes' :)

Then she goes back to the counter and asks me if I like football (aka soccer) I say no then I ask her and she says 'oh no (giggle) ' then she starts talking about the opera in the city, so we have a little chat about that, the whole time it's like she's trying to keep the conversation going, so she tells me she goes to this place on Fridays and it's free, I didn't think about it in the moment what that meant but that must have been a hint.

She kept on asking the chef when my food would be gettin done and she brought me back some prawn crackers for my wait which was nice.

Anyways I got a little excited that she might be hitting on me, I made sure not to show it on my face but then she starts backing off a bit and I'm wondering where to take the conversation from there, she switched just like that because I got excited, now I'm thinkin did I fuck up by getting excited or did I have the wrong idea to begin with?.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:37 am 
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I did at first start writing a long breakdown of this interaction, it was quite long and drawn out.

Then I deleted it! , highlighted it and hit delete

I am going to make you work for this a bit and not just hand you my answers on a plate.

Your mission, should you choose to accept it, mr create, is :
  • Write up a breakdown of this interaction, all the things that went on within it and WHY they happened.
    Take your time, include ALL options, even if you doubt them.
    You are missing something and it is not what you think it is, from the way you wrote your message.
-

I'll give you a clue, one bit you misread was when you got excited. She KNEW you were not being real with her, that is why she backed off. It was not because you got excited.

I feel it will help you to break this down, then we can really deal with how you read the situation, as you did not really give enough detail on how you were reading each part of the interaction (in the moment).

SHE GAVE YOU SO SO SO MANY CHANCES AND OPENINGS!
She was practically screaming at you, in woman speak.

[ok, have to stop myself typing there or I will go into explain mode again]

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In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.


Last edited by peregrinus on Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:45 pm 
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Not only did she throw herself at you, but you would be very surprised at how many girls in your life
are doing the exact same thing to you every...single...day. I want you to do something. I want you
to get slightly bolder every single day. It doesn't have to be a massive amount and I certainly
wouldn't expect it to be, but every day I want you to speak your mind a tiny bit better or say
something very bold that you might not have said the day before or hold eye contact with a
girl a little longer than you ever have before. Do little things like this and do them more every day.
What I dont want you to do is analyze interactions. If you think even a little that a girl might like you
then just tell yourself that she does. Expect that she does and you'll probably be right. No more doubting
or second guessing yourself. From now the only reason that you dont do something is because you didn't
do it. That's all you should be telling yourself and you'll realize that there are no excuses for anything anymore.
It will open a whole new world of possibilities for you, my friend.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 5:33 pm 
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Ok, here's my breakdown as detailed as I can put it, I have yet to get to the bottom of these feelings of doubt but I'm working on it.

-When I stepped into the door the Chinese girl's reaction was different to me than usual, she had a pleasant smile on her face like she was seeing a good friend and she waved and said "Hi (giggle) :D", my appearance may have had something to do with that but from what I've seen around me looks don't really matter so I didn't think much of it (I know it makes some difference but not so much that she would throw herself at me) so after ordering my food she told me it might take awhile cuz they're busy and I was like ok and sat down and read my book to kill time.

-she started talking to me first by asking me if I liked football, I didn't know it was on so after I said "what?" she pointed to the television at the corner of the room then I told her "nah I'm really into it, what about you?".

-I would have dismissed her initial comment as polite conversation if it wasn't for her continuing the conversation by mention of this opera in the city she goes to on Fridays, she was like "no (giggle) I don't like football, I prefer to go to opera" so I took that as her trying to build rapport, in the moment I was thinking she already knew she was going to mention the opera before I gave my answer and she just used the football comment to start conversation.

-later on when she came over to the side of me to readjust the table and papers, I thought she was trying to get my attention because she was doing it slowly, then as she got up she was looking at me and stood over me and said something like "oh you been waiting awhile for your food", I was reading my book and didn't keep rack of time so it didn't seem like I'd been waiting long, so I said "it's ok, it's only been a couple minutes".

-Before she gave me the prawn crackers I was already gettin excited, inside I was thinking "don't smile like it''s Christmas" because I remembered a couple days ago where I met this girl from my job interview and suggested to her that we keep in touch, she was indifferent during our convo on the bus, I did cherry picking but she didn't give me much ti pick from, at the end she only pretended to take my number down cuz inside I was too eager, the same feeling came back so I kept my face straight to avoid putting the Chinese girl off, so whilst I was trying to mask my emotion would it have really made a difference if I had kept a grin on my face? I think I just went for the lesser of two evils there, I thought I was fucking up by getting excited and it was already over because I got this feeling.

-She could have mentioned the free opera she frequents on Fridays as an opening for me to ask her out, at that point I was thinking about giving her my number until doubt creeped in and I considered that if I misread the situation it would be awkward and I could never go back to that place if I fucked up, so I didn't risk it.

Anything missing?.

_________________
"Simply put, you being in her life is a BLESSING. Her wronging you in any way is her own self-inflicted CURSE, and if she does wrong you, then let the punishment fit the crime. Her life will absolutely SUCK without you."


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:02 pm 
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Quote:
Anything missing?.


Yes...YOUR NUTS.

Find them....NOW. :|

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:00 am 
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create wrote:
Anything missing?.
YUP!

These point to your issue with the interaction:
create wrote:
I was thinking about giving her my number until doubt creeped in and I considered that if I misread the situation it would be awkward and I could never go back to that place if I fucked up, so I didn't risk it.
create wrote:
I thought I was fucking up by getting excited and it was already over because I got this feeling.
Are you scared of success or failure?

Why would you not be able to go back if she said no.. would that really be fucking up?
[I feel there is a story behind this, related to your past]

--

I am going to quote these seperately, because each is important on its own, take them all together and you really need a clip around the ear create.
create wrote:
the person at the counter who's usually standoffish when I go in there was smiling at me with delight (acutal delight).
create wrote:
so she comes over, bends down and moves some stuff and readjusts the table next to me
create wrote:
she comes back and does the same thing then she looks at me and comments that I've been waiting for awhile for my food
create wrote:
comments that I've been waiting for awhile for my food
create wrote:
Then she goes back to the counter and asks me if I like football (aka soccer)
create wrote:
she starts talking about the opera in the city
create wrote:
the whole time it's like she's trying to keep the conversation going
create wrote:
so she tells me she goes to this place on Fridays and it's free
create wrote:
She kept on asking the chef when my food would be gettin done
create wrote:
she brought me back some prawn crackers for my wait
--

If someone else, for example ME had posted this, how would you have replied to them, what would YOU have told them about the interaction?

_________________
In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:25 pm 
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I'm on lunch break now so I'll answer your first question firstly.

If I had fucked up and gotten the wrong idea with the girl and come off like a chump I would have not been able to go back because of embarrassment, if I ran into any of the women I approached during my zan period I would feel shame....if she said no in my mind it would mean she would find me repulsive, this thought comes from an experience I had when I was 12 that laid a solid foundation for my insecurities.

After investigating this mentally I found that it's both fear of sucess and failure; in my mind success is daunting and intimidating because 1) I've never had it and 2) early in my life I had experiences that lead me to believe I don't deserve it, I'm scared of it but if someone pushed themselves overtly in my direction I wouldn't hold them back, this almost happened with my first gf but we were interrupted, a couple weeks after she dumped me she told me we would have had sex if it wasn't for the interruption.

Inside of me there are turbulent emotions I don't know how to deal with, try as I might to keep a cool head even in situations like today in my job, I have to work to keep this volcano of emotions from erupting.

This job I have now (luckily and thankfully) has dealing with these issues as part of the curriculum and I do intend on addressing them, I'll answer the next question when I finish tonight.

_________________
"Simply put, you being in her life is a BLESSING. Her wronging you in any way is her own self-inflicted CURSE, and if she does wrong you, then let the punishment fit the crime. Her life will absolutely SUCK without you."


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:38 pm 
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Pere - I'm very impressed with your "coaching" skills here man. Really challenging create to take a look for his own good.
create wrote:

If I had fucked up and gotten the wrong idea with the girl and come off like a chump I would have not been able to go back because of embarrassment, if I ran into any of the women I approached during my zan period I would feel shame....if she said no in my mind it would mean she would find me repulsive, this thought comes from an experience I had when I was 12 that laid a solid foundation for my insecurities.
Create, my friend. This is all good stuff. Check out the words I've bolded for you. Your language is littered with negative things you belief about yourself. They aren't true, they are just what you believe. Why do you believe these things about yourself? Where did they come from? I think investigating this, and looking to heal it will do wonderous things for your life. I know from experience and have healed a lot of shame in the past month even. Yes it can be healed that quickly. It takes focus but it can be done.

Who cares what she thinks about you, what do you think about her? Know that she wants you, she wants you fucking badly.

What about what you've done right? One thing is that you came dressed up nice to that restaurant. What you showed me here was also that the reason people like people that dress well, is that it shows (to some degree at least) that they care about themselves, that they care about taking care of themselves. Give yourself some credit. Also give yourself some credit for being will to take a look at all this, to break it down and to ultimately change all of it to have the life of your dreams. Most people don't do that, just by virtue of that you are way ahead of most. This isn't some BS, sunshine up your ass statement I'm making, it's fucking true man. Because I've been finally experiencing the life of my dreams in the last few days all because I've been dedicated, like you, to stop at nothing to get it.
create wrote:
After investigating this mentally I found that it's both fear of sucess and failure; in my mind success is daunting and intimidating because 1) I've never had it and 2) early in my life I had experiences that lead me to believe I don't deserve it, I'm scared of it but if someone pushed themselves overtly in my direction I wouldn't hold them back, this almost happened with my first gf but we were interrupted, a couple weeks after she dumped me she told me we would have had sex if it wasn't for the interruption.
The fact that you've never had sex means nothing to how you feel about yourself. I wish you could see that. I know it's hard to believe, but let me tell you, as someone who has experience with women, but has for too long had a poor self-image in regards to women (but no longer). The fact that I've slept with X amount of women, and that you have slept with none, and that I still felt as you did up until a couple of days ago, all points to the fact that having sex will not make you feel better about yourself in the long run. Case and point, I was scrambling to get laid the last week and bumping into barrier after barrier, coming from a place of scarcity, it felt like I hadn't ever been laid before. I did that to myself, I created that state. Once I was able to let it all go, thanks to Pere and others who made comments on the thread, along with taking fully responsibility of what I've been creating, and seeing my unresourceful beliefs putting in place new beliefs using my now very high awareness. This is an ongoing process moment to moment, and I've been on a hardcore "training" program over the last week for this, but it's all working so well.

So take the pressure off yourself that's at least 1/2 the battle.

The fact that you got interrupted and didn't have sex with your GF at the time, was absolutely not your fault. It seems that either she is blaming you somehow, and you are blaming yourself because of that. No one's at fault, except for her being at fault for blaming you. It's really kind of a bitchy thing to say, and she's not nearly as nice as you probably think she is. I'm gonna defer to David X on this one, that "women are NOT sugar and spice and everything NICE". I'm not saying that in a resentful way, but they are quite adept at turning things over on men, and blaming then. You did nothing wrong.
create wrote:
Inside of me there are turbulent emotions I don't know how to deal with, try as I might to keep a cool head even in situations like today in my job, I have to work to keep this volcano of emotions from erupting.
I've found this to be one of the hardest tricks in the book, but it's true. You'd be better off just feeling the emotions without trying to control them or stuff them down. My guess is the turbulence of which you speak is actually coming from your resistance to these emotions, not the emotions themselves. And I like how you described it as "volcanic" because your repressing of them just stuffs them down, builds up the emotional pressure inside. Emotions just are part of being human, and once you let yourself feel them, without acting on them, and without stuff them down, they simply dissolve until they appear again.

Emotions will come and go, but you'll find it's much easier if you do this. One HUGE BREAKTHROUGH I had in the last two days was to watch my emotional state and when I felt like shit about myself in regards to women. The emotional state is simply a pointer to something that I belief about myself. So I hit a low state, then I say "holy shit, isn't that interesting? What is going on here? What am I doing/thinking/believing to create this?" I then take a look at the thoughts (beliefs) that I had the seconds before the emotion hit. BINGO! The though/belief is crystal clear, so I instantly say to myself "that's bullshit, that's a lie". Then say the belief that I want to be true. BAM. State changes to bliss, one of feeling great about myself, that I'm enough and that women want me. This is what I truly want to feel and manifest.

This really does work, but the key as always, is high-awareness, and being vigilant about watching your emotions/thoughts/beliefs (they really all interconnected, but it's easiest to start with the emotional state I think). And you absolutely don't have to sleep with a women first, so get there if you take a look at how you are creating it. I find it easier to start with the emotion and trace back the belief, because the thoughts run through my head so quick it's hard to catch them, but the emotion is a visceral feeling, and easy to use as a stopping point and to trace it back. This process is of course on going but extremely powerful, and I finally get what many of my teachers have said about this.

Looking forward to seeing you answer the rest of Pere q's.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 6:31 pm 
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To answer your second question Pre, as another person, the first thought I had was that this woman was throwing enough signs for the guy to make a move, the door was wide open, big enough to drive a truck through but he didn't go for it because of irrational self-doubt.

Amongst those doubts a black-and-white belief that if a girl doesn't overtly make an advance she is not interested or the guy isn't that attractive to her.

It's only recently that I've been able to examine myself like this, so I hope I'm being clear.

_________________
"Simply put, you being in her life is a BLESSING. Her wronging you in any way is her own self-inflicted CURSE, and if she does wrong you, then let the punishment fit the crime. Her life will absolutely SUCK without you."


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 6:50 pm 
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create wrote:
To answer your second question Pre, as another person, the first thought I had was that this woman was throwing enough signs for the guy to make a move, the door was wide open, big enough to drive a truck through but he didn't go for it because of irrational self-doubt.

Amongst those doubts a black-and-white belief that if a girl doesn't overtly make an advance she is not interested or the guy isn't that attractive to her.

It's only recently that I've been able to examine myself like this, so I hope I'm being clear.
Get it together mayne...it's like you are scared to succeed. This self-defeatist mentality will only continue to lead to a self-fulfilling prophecy that will continue to end in tears for YEARS. :|

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:26 pm 
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I know man this is the toughest battle of my life but I won't lose.

I've won other battles and haven't given myself credit for that, I will remind myself vigilantly of how far I've come.

I have to come to terms with my redeeming qualities, I mean shit I just counted 10 and they're undeniable facts, I also have to accept that women communicate subconsciously and learn to trust those gut feelings.

I know I will win.

_________________
"Simply put, you being in her life is a BLESSING. Her wronging you in any way is her own self-inflicted CURSE, and if she does wrong you, then let the punishment fit the crime. Her life will absolutely SUCK without you."


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:56 pm 
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create wrote:
I know I will win.
You will win my man, cause you stoped the smile and wink BS and came here, a place people can actually learn usefull stuff.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:08 am 
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Firstly, thanks david for your comments, nice of you to say.

Create: I would recommend you read both david and Libertines replies quite a few times, slowly over many days. Both contain gems.

Going back to your stuff:
create wrote:
the first thought I had was that this woman was throwing enough signs for the guy to make a move, the door was wide open, big enough to drive a truck through
Indeed, this is what we are seeing when we read your description.

I could get clever and say you did not really need to make a move, all she needed was space to carry on. YOU did make a move, you shut her down.
create wrote:
I also have to accept that women communicate subconsciously
She was not communicating subconsciously, she was in fact very open about her communication, it was even on a verbal overt level.. Short of her going 'I AM REALLY REALLY ATTRACTED TO YOU!'

She gave you body language clues, she tried to keep the conversation going. She was taking care of you, seeing that you did not have to wait longer than necessary, offering you entertainment while you waited (her) and she fed you while you waited.. What more could she have done?
Laid down on the floor legs akimbo and begged you?
create wrote:
and learn to trust those gut feelings.
Indeed

create wrote:
I found that it's both fear of success and failure
That is a real bind.. If you fear both success and failure, how do you ever get anything done? You are either going to succeed or fail. You really need to look at this and do some strong self talk or examination.

[If I read from your msgs correctly... Let me sum up:

If she is attracted to you, you get all excited and then think you have fucked it up, before you have really done anything. (if she was attracted to you, what is wrong about that, her being attracted to you - it is almost like you are punishing her for her attraction)

If she is not attracted to you, you feel like a chump for reading it wrong and get feelings of embarrassment and shame. (before you even find out if its true)

Can you see how this might cause you problems? This HAS to be addressed somehow by YOU!]


You saw her attraction to you and your reaction to her was to SHUT HER DOWN, is it any wonder she backed off. To her you acted like you were repulsed by her attraction. To put it simply. (How I read the situation)

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:31 pm 
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You saw her attraction to you and your reaction to her was to SHUT HER DOWN, is it any wonder she backed off. To her you acted like you were repulsed by her attraction. To put it simply. (How I read the situation)
Co-sign. :ugeek:

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:30 pm 
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It wasn't my intent to shut her down, I'm attracted to her, I was always eyeing her up when I went in there before and I thought it was putting her off and now she's attracted to me, it went from one extreme to the other, if it's not too late I will make a move.

I know it sounds arrogant but I do want them to do more, I mean look at how hard dudes have to try, why not them?. I want THEM to make some effort for a change, when they throw stuff my way like the Chinese girl did and I make a move and then they act like they AREN'T attracted to me, that shit pisses me off and makes me second-guess my gut feelings, that has happened.

I investigated an emotion I have when irritated and it feels like shit, deep down I feel hate, that they owe me for all the years of rejection, they've made me suffer and I want retribution, so I guess I subconsciously reject them as a form of revenge, maybe I reject them because they've been doing it to me for so long that I want to do the same to them, it's a mixture of anger and apathy, I don't feel this right now but in moments of intense emotion.

Maybe I act or feel like I'm repulsed because this is what they do when I feel attraction for them, I just figured at some point that it might work the other way around, but all it's managed o do is perpetuate a catch-22 situation and emotional turbulence inside of me.
peregrinus wrote:

If she is not attracted to you, you feel like a chump for reading it wrong and get feelings of embarrassment and shame. (before you even find out if its true)
The way I see it if she doesn't reciprocate she's not interested, unless I'm wrong and I'm getting ahead of myself, so why do they have this negative reaction from them when I give something as innocent as a look? because they're reacting to the projection of my own beliefs but I see their reaction before I feel any emotion or thought within myself, like they're reacting in advance, so how do I catch something that quick and preemptive?. This will take time and practice.

I agree with what you guys have told me and I will address this, somehow.....

_________________
"Simply put, you being in her life is a BLESSING. Her wronging you in any way is her own self-inflicted CURSE, and if she does wrong you, then let the punishment fit the crime. Her life will absolutely SUCK without you."


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:41 pm 
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I understand this feeling and I can definitely relate...I went through a similar phase when I first got out of the military. However, I didn't hold the actions of few against the majority. Most women came correct and I treated them correctly. But the ones that did try me, best BELIEVE that what they got had the momentum of years of rejection behind it. I channeled most of it thru revenge on my ex and chicks that decided to deal with me like any other guy they might have dealt with before realizing that I am nothing like them.

There is nothing wrong with how you are feeling. It's natural in fact, and I too have gone through it. The challenge now is to reframe it and and turn it into something that doesn't shoot you in the foot when you come across a woman who may be genuinely interested in you.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:01 am 
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Give them space and they will fill it.

If you do not give them any space, how can they fill it, there is no space to fill, it is already full with you.

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In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:14 am 
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create: seems like you are getting to the nub of the problem now :) good news

I agree with what Kidd said about that phase being natural to go through for those who faced rejection earlier in life.. it is a purge of your negative emotions.
The Kidd!! wrote:
But the ones that did try me, best BELIEVE that what they got had the momentum of years of rejection behind it. I channeled most of it thru revenge on my ex and chicks that decided to deal with me like any other guy they might have dealt with before realizing that I am nothing like them.
That was the time I took time out from women, focussed on work and other activities. It really did piss me off that badly for a while. I knew I was not in a good mindset to be playing with women and rather than unleash my wrath on them I kept my distance.
A LOT of women got warned off by me during that time, I would have eat them up and spat them out and did not want that taste in my mouth later down the line. (I knew men who had done that and saw the mark it left on both of them)

for some reason 'You really do not want to play with me' together with bared teeth does something funny to women, I am sure it puts them in 'on heat' mode. I really meant it when I said it, keep away for your own good.
I found that professing my deep love for them worked better at keeping them away, used that for quite a while, when I got bored of the other response.

That time did provide me with some interesting memories and experiences.

_________________
In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:14 am 
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peregrinus wrote:
Give them space and they will fill it.

If you do not give them any space, how can they fill it, there is no space to fill, it is already full with you.

Man so simple, yet truly so profound. The question is can "YOU"(meaning any guy) be patient, relaxed, confident, and strong enough in your masculinity in your foundation to allow that space to be filled??


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:56 pm 
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peregrinus wrote:
A LOT of women got warned off by me during that time, I would have eat them up and spat them out and did not want that taste in my mouth later down the line. (I knew men who had done that and saw the mark it left on both of them)

for some reason 'You really do not want to play with me' together with bared teeth does something funny to women, I am sure it puts them in 'on heat' mode. I really meant it when I said it, keep away for your own good.
I found that professing my deep love for them worked better at keeping them away, used that for quite a while, when I got bored of the other response.

That time did provide me with some interesting memories and experiences.
I'm sure they see the look on my face that says 'don't fuck with me', I have much wrath to unleash.

Today I did the most intense workout session thanks to motivation from The Kidd, I realized how much all his anger and frustration can serve as fuel for the exercise, it's almost boundless when I tap into it, everytime I slowed down I didn't even have to try hard to think about those women and all the bullshit, just a small image or a feeling, a reminder, girl walking upstairs to workout, and *bam* there's my fuel and I pick up speed, today I had enough to go the extra mile.

I'll be stronger, healthier and hopefully freeing myself of this emotional weight in due time.

_________________
"Simply put, you being in her life is a BLESSING. Her wronging you in any way is her own self-inflicted CURSE, and if she does wrong you, then let the punishment fit the crime. Her life will absolutely SUCK without you."


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